221–230 of 369 posts
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It's pretty impossible to beat the $5 wrench attack (or in the case of the government, 5 years in prison) unless you have anonymity, which Bitcoin does a very bad job of.
There is no way they were only facing 5 years. Any sane person would do 5 years for a billion dollars.
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Your account can be frozen and confiscated, but you have legal recourse. There are several anti-forfeiture legal groups that will take these cases on for free as a matter of principle (and because they generally get court-ordered legal fees from the prosecuting agency if they defeat the forfeiture).
Oh, you're assuming the legal system is the same everywhere in the world as the US. Let assume the person is in China. Or Venezuela.
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How do you surrender assets you don't have control over? I'm merely pointing out that the differences are not superficial.
The point is that the judge won't say, "Aha! You got me!", the judge will say, "Cute trick, now back to jail."
There can be any number of reasons the coin was moved:
- hacked by some 3rd party
- corruption by officers (https://news.bitcoin.com/rogue-silk-road-agent-admits-to-ste...)
- partner in crime moved them, with or without consent from suspect.
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They can "ask" you for your Bitcoin, but the question is phrased, "Would you rather give us your Bitcoin now, or would you rather spend some time in jail first and give us the Bitcoin later?" It generally requires a court order to get money out of your bank. If it's a Bitcoin wallet, then they can just send the court order to you directly, and put you in jail until you comply (i.e. as many years as it takes). The dif…
I thought there was a constitutional ruling that you can not be compelled to remember passwords. Couldn't you just say "I forgot the key?"
Some cases have put people in jail a long time for contempt when they refused to hand over passwords.
https://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/editorials/2020/07/01/L...
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How do you surrender assets you don't have control over? I'm merely pointing out that the differences are not superficial.
They aren't superficial. You aren't wrong in that assessment. But, you are ignoring how law works. Here's a little bit about that: Criminal law is all about intent. So, here's an example of the non superficial elements here: Say, one gets the "gimme your coin" order, says no, goes to jail. While in jail, the coins move, OK? Person in jail cries, "Uncle!" and gives up the wallet. Authorities find it empty. Who had wha…
Intent alone does not prove anything, you need proof of act (actus reus to the mens rea).
To play along with your analogy; do you have proof that someone killed someone else? Even if you have a damning confession letter which proves intent. Do you have a murder weapon? Evidence that puts the person at the scene of the crime? Circumstantial evidence like phone location data?
Ironically intent is the far harder thing to prove, I have no idea why you chose to base your argument on intent.
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> If such thing were to happen, and afterwards you complied, then there would be little grounds to hold you for contempt of court. The court system is not a computer program you can fool with clever tricks. If you are facing a court order to surrender money or other assets and try to evade it by moving the money around, you are just going to find yourself in deeper trouble. People have tried it before.
How do you surrender assets you don't have control over? I'm merely pointing out that the differences are not superficial.
If you’ve arranged to share control of the Bitcoin wallet with someone else so they can move coins out of it in order to evade a court order, what’s happened is you’ve now conspired with someone else to evade a court order. Say hello to the RICO act, or something like it. Maybe you’ll be spending some time in prison after your assets are seized, and maybe your friend will be too. It’s kind of hard for your friend to claim that they were innocent.
There are a lot of tough laws against this stuff which are designed to work against the mob and organized crime. You’re not really inventing something new, you’re just doing old-fashioned mafia stuff, but using computers to do it. The court doesn’t care that you used computers to do it.
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Disclaimer, I know very little about bitcoin. If you owe the IRS tax money, they can take the money from your bank account without asking. They just do it. Can the same be done with bitcoin? As far as I know, they aren't able to. If that's the case, there's a difference.
They can "ask" you for your Bitcoin, but the question is phrased, "Would you rather give us your Bitcoin now, or would you rather spend some time in jail first and give us the Bitcoin later?" It generally requires a court order to get money out of your bank. If it's a Bitcoin wallet, then they can just send the court order to you directly, and put you in jail until you comply (i.e. as many years as it takes). The dif…
If your money is in a (regulated) bitcoin exchange, then the government has more-or-less the same access to it as if it were in a bank. The serve a court order to the third party you have entrusted with your money, and the third party complies, without your direct involvement.
Many of the arguments about bitcoin involve comparing apples to oranges. Bitcoin is a currency, its direct comparison is dollar bills, but most of the problems that it purports to solve are aspects of banks not dollars. There is some argument to be made that you can do more with Bitcoins without involving a bank, but I see a lot of people putting Bitcoins in banks (or exchanges or other regulatable third parties), and a comparison of Bitcoin + surrounding financial institutions vs Dollars + surrounding financial institutions is not as favorable to Bitcoin.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
How do you surrender assets you don't have control over? I'm merely pointing out that the differences are not superficial.
> How do you surrender assets you don't have control over? If you’ve arranged to share control of the Bitcoin wallet with someone else so they can move coins out of it in order to evade a court order, what’s happened is you’ve now conspired with someone else to evade a court order. Say hello to the RICO act, or something like it. Maybe you’ll be spending some time in prison after your assets are seized, and maybe you…
My wife flees to Russia and moves the coin to another wallet, without my knowledge. Or maybe it was an agreed plan. Who can prove otherwise.
Eventually I give up and decrypt the wallets.
What are your legal grounds for prosecuting me for this further action? What can you prove? How are you going to prove that I conspired, and that this wasn't my wife going rogue?
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> If such thing were to happen, and afterwards you complied, then there would be little grounds to hold you for contempt of court. The court system is not a computer program you can fool with clever tricks. If you are facing a court order to surrender money or other assets and try to evade it by moving the money around, you are just going to find yourself in deeper trouble. People have tried it before.
How do you surrender assets you don't have control over? I'm merely pointing out that the differences are not superficial.
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What do you even do with that much bitcoin realistically? It's dirty, so any attempt to turn it into fiat puts you at risk of being found. Whoever had it refused to touch it for 7 years, likely because they knew it was a fast-track to getting arrested. Giving that money straight to the feds in exchange for immunity might be more attractive than trying to hide the reason you became a billionaire.
Pretty crazy to think about. Its a billion dollars. For that much money, it might almost be worth it to go to jail for it and let your kids try to launder it 50 years later. There are bound to arise opportunities to launder at least part of it right? Even without considering that the bitcoins might become even more valuable, you could set up a dynasty with this money.
The USA government can easily launder 1 G$ in bitcoin and give you part of the profits; it's not clear who else could. The only alternative I can imagine is some giant money laundering scheme with some authoritarian state, probably involving the smuggling of oil, diamonds and/or weapons.