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Goodbye, Native Apps

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Re: Goodbye, Native Apps

#221
post #138
post #115

why not just golang+http in one binary as backend and browser for the GUI frontend, that seems can solve all the GUI problems. of course you will need a modern browser, which is everywhere these days.

https://github.com/webview/webview

aware of that and yes that's an interesting project

Re: Goodbye, Native Apps

#222
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Windows Forms will work for forever but hasn't been touched in a long time WinForms very recently got HiDPI support, better accessibility features, and was ported to .NET Core where they also fixed bugs in some controls. WPF in the meantime has been arbitrarily declared stable and Microsoft refuses to fix anything. Everybody is supposed to switch to UWP which they already deprecated or WinUI which hasn't been relea…

Windows Forms remains supported, yeah, but there are no marquee feature to make it easier to develop for really. That seems like it's more focused on getting people to bring their existing WinForms work to .NET Core.

The "marquee feature" of Windows Forms to my mind is the staggeringly large number of commercial component packs available. To this day, getting something working quickly that works as it should for the target operating system (provided that is Windows) is vastly easier than any other alternative.

Re: Goodbye, Native Apps

#223
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, VS Code is not a "fully featured IDE". In fact, I would argue that it is even not an IDE. Simply because, "I" ("Integrated") in IDE implies lack of external dependencies or, in other words, self-sufficiency . Install PyCharm, Rider or any other real IDE , for that matter, and you have a truly fully featured development environment (yes, you can install some optional plugins, but it is largely not neede…

Interesting that you mention pycharm. VSCode has a superb integrated experience for TypeScript ootb with language, refactoring, IntelliSense support, etc, no plugins or additional language servers needed.

Well, this is not terribly surprising, considering TypeScript's origins in Microsoft. Not adding full IDE support for their core languages (.NET) to VS Code is understandable as well, though - the company does not want to jeopardize sales of Visual Studio, their commercial true IDE. In any case, you could argue that VC Code has IDE-level functionality for TypeScript, but I still stand by my general argument.

Re: Goodbye, Native Apps

#224

I hate this trend so much. I just dug around in Time Machine for the old version of Evernote, after being frustrated by the Electron trash they are calling version 10. It's missing so many little touches that just magically happen when you make a real application instead of having to fake everything from inside a browser.

Have you tried Notational Velocity?

searches

No sync, looks like it won’t let me put images/PDFs in, no way to collaborate with my co-writer on projects, last version is from 2011. Nope. Haven’t tried it, don’t think I will, I dunno who it’s for but it’s not for me.

Re: Goodbye, Native Apps

#225
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be right with respect to non-techie users. But, it's not about whether it merely works. It's about what we could be doing with modern hardware if we used it as efficiently as old software had to use its hardware. What kinds of wild things could we accomplish on this hardware if we weren't bogged down in gigabytes and teraflops of bloat?

> What kinds of wild things could we accomplish on this hardware if we weren't bogged down in gigabytes and teraflops of bloat? Not that many: An early 1990s PC platform could be thoroughly described in a 200 page book and you could write a boot loader for the CPU, a VGA driver, and drivers for the most common peripherals from scratch in a few weeks. In fact, games of that era shipped with their own audio drivers, (C…

Machines running too fast...

Reminds me of the Turbo button on PCs in the 90s, which all my school mates and I at the time thought was for a speed-up.

Au contraire!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_button

Re: Goodbye, Native Apps

#226
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contrast that to most other programming languages / development environments, where you usually can just download and run it. There are, sadly, other offenders too. Microsoft is possibly the worst among them. Gone are the days of being able to use a free edition of Visual Studio to develop Windows applications with no strings attached. And good luck even figuring out what the privacy policy is, a problem that also ap…

While bringing developers to the stone age before RAD tooling was a thing. Because when one designs languages over weekends and late nighters, state of the art GC, JIT and GUI tooling are at very deep bottom of their roadmaps. So thank you very much, but I will keep enjoying Java, .NET and C++ based tooling.

I'm confused

Why would someone both give up the ease of use and power of VB6 and/or Delphi / Lazarus, and want the bloat of Java, .NET, C++, etc.. that just complicate things for no good reasons?

It's like the programmers of the world went insane somewhere around 2002.

Re: Goodbye, Native Apps

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indeed, there have been plenty of native platform standards that have awful usability in recent years, which have rightly been criticised for it by professionals wielding empirical evidence. Platform native UI conventions are very often sub-optimal, if only because they're old . But sub-optimal standards are very often preferable to unpredictable , and are definitely preferable to having to juggle multiple conflict…

Platform native UI conventions are very often sub-optimal, if only because they're old. But sub-optimal standards are very often preferable to unpredictable The reason that junk like flat design and derivatives like Material Design are awful for usability has nothing to do with being old and everything to do with being unpredictable. Often, a user literally can't tell what parts of an interface are interactive or how…

> The reason that junk like flat design and derivatives like Material Design are awful for usability has nothing to do with being old and everything to do with being unpredictable.

I'm surprised to see you mentioning the flat design trend as something you consider "old" in any way. I see it as a fad that is past its peak but still far too prevalent to regard as being in the past. And when I was talking about platform native UI conventions, I definitely had older stuff in mind than Windows 8.

> Well, firstly, a testing methodology is literally the opposite of worthless if it gives you an objective measure of the increased financial value generated by a change under consideration.

See, this is the biggest problem here. I'm talking about usability and value to the user. You're talking about optimizing the UI to exploit the users for your maximum profit. Those two motivations are obviously not well-aligned, and if you're on the side of that divide where the ad-tech stuff is, then you're not even trying to have the same conversation I'm having. Your incentives are to maximize the user's engagement with your product, so of course you don't care about how well it fits into their multitasking workflow; you want to monopolize the user's time.

Re: Goodbye, Native Apps

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Platform native UI conventions are very often sub-optimal, if only because they're old. But sub-optimal standards are very often preferable to unpredictable The reason that junk like flat design and derivatives like Material Design are awful for usability has nothing to do with being old and everything to do with being unpredictable. Often, a user literally can't tell what parts of an interface are interactive or how…

> The reason that junk like flat design and derivatives like Material Design are awful for usability has nothing to do with being old and everything to do with being unpredictable. I'm surprised to see you mentioning the flat design trend as something you consider "old" in any way. I see it as a fad that is past its peak but still far too prevalent to regard as being in the past . And when I was talking about platfor…

I'm talking about usability and value to the user. You're talking about optimizing the UI to exploit the users for your maximum profit. Those two motivations are obviously not well-aligned

I could not disagree more strongly. I have built a career built, in no small part, on a simple business model of creating software that users like because it's easy and works well, and consequently attracting and retaining happy (and paying) customers. This has absolutely nothing to do with ad-tech, which I generally regard as a toxic business model for exactly the reasons you're arguing.

Re: Goodbye, Native Apps

#229
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While bringing developers to the stone age before RAD tooling was a thing. Because when one designs languages over weekends and late nighters, state of the art GC, JIT and GUI tooling are at very deep bottom of their roadmaps. So thank you very much, but I will keep enjoying Java, .NET and C++ based tooling.

I'm confused Why would someone both give up the ease of use and power of VB6 and/or Delphi / Lazarus, and want the bloat of Java, .NET, C++, etc.. that just complicate things for no good reasons? It's like the programmers of the world went insane somewhere around 2002.

What is so complicated about .NET or Java?

Re: Goodbye, Native Apps

#230
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.NET Native is an absolute nightmare in practice. Glacial compile times (I’ve heard many people complain that their Azure DevOps CI times out after an hour), and so many bugs that you only discover at runtime. I gave up on .NET Native after discovering that it can’t even handle the ultra-popular Dapper ORM. While I like the idea of .NET AOT, the execution left so much to be desired. The developer experience is so bad…

Well, if you have been following up on blogs, community videos and github issues, most likely by the time .NET 6 comes out, the stack will look like Windows 7 development model never went away and the only improvement was replacing COM with the improvements brought by UWP. With the store sandboxing Win32 apps instead. https://github.com/dotnet/designs/blob/main/accepted/2020/fo... https://github.com/microsoft/Project…

What is the point of AOT? xcopy + .NET Framework worked perfectly for what I used them.
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