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Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

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Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#221

Post by lostcolony »

PeterStuer wrote: post #167
lostcolony wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. Of course they don't meant that. Because you can totally give money to the government. https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/public/gifts-to-government.h... What they actually mean is "I wish you made me pay more". Because they can't bring themselves to write a check to -give- it away, but -do- feel they should have to pay more. Part of that is the social aspect; why should I, as a rich person, be paying more th…

Saying "I wish you made me pay more" while then turning around and hire the best tax accountants to avoid paying even one cent, and lobbying, funding and grooming politicians that will block any wealth taxes, is just adding insult to injury and insulting hypocrisy.

Well, it's the same motivation, isn't it? "All my peers are doing this - I would be a sucker not to do the same". It's that feeling of being taken advantage of that they want to avoid.

Let's be clear, there are three kinds of mindsets here:

"I don't want to be taxed at all" - lots of lobbying and such to keep taxes on the rich low, and lots of loopholes.

"I think people of my bracket should be taxed higher, but I am going to avail myself of every existing loophole and itemization I can" - doesn't want to feel like a sucker, but agrees people in their bracket, themselves included, should pay more.

"I think people of my bracket should be taxed higher, and I'm going to give money away anonymously or similar to put my money where my mouth is, even if others of my bracket are not" - a unicorn.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#222

Post by hinkley »

coliveira wrote: post #53
tonystubblebine wrote: post #6

As a business owner, when taxes are low, I see that as an incentive to pocket profits. But when taxes are high, I see that as an incentive to hide the profits by investing in the future. I know this isn't always the case with everyone. And especially investors have a case that higher corporate taxes reduce the value of their investments, possibly to the point of not making them. But this incentive is so blatantly obv…

This is so hidden in the debate that it is almost like a "secret". The more taxes you have on corporate income, the higher the incentive for corporations to invest in the company, so they can avoid paying taxes. This is good for the economy. On the other hand, lowering corporate taxes also generates a cascade of tax avoidance, since you have higher profits that generate the need for more complex tax avoidance schemes…

This conversation makes me wonder about how tax breaks to incentivize certain types of investments are perceived in the board room, especially over the long term.

It sounds like if taxes are high, I invest and play for time, waiting for some administration to offer me a tax break so I can take money out. Is a targeted tax break then also a chance to extract profit?

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#223

Post by motohagiography »

I always thought they were just a provocation to make other measures seem more reasonable, or a kind of signal for filtering off thoughtful people and attracting rubes for a rabble. When you realize wealth taxes are economic cannibalism, you just can't unsee it.

Sure, eat the rich, but you are left with the same question the sort people who advocate that kind of thing never seem to ask themselves, which is, "and then what?"

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#224

Post by zdragnar »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #63
zdragnar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange. Business owner friends of mine have taken the opposite approach over the years. Taxes low? Start up something new, get it going. Taxes go up again? Sell it off (if they haven't already) and go back to early retirement doing whatever. Maybe it is largely the type of business that behavior changes. Their last venture was starting up an aquaponics farm in a borderline urban / suburban area, though I haven't kep…

When have taxes been "going up again" exactly.

State and local taxes mostly.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#225

Post by jurassic »

sempron64 wrote: post #125

I'm not wealthy enough for a wealth tax to apply, but a wealth tax is a colossal privacy and administrative burden on _every single taxpayer_. Assets must be accounted for when calculating wealth, so the tax service will be required to track and value assets including vehicles, homes, and material good etc. for every citizen to see if the wealth tax would apply to them -- if we didn't report material goods, the wealt…

I love that you brought up the surveillance aspect; I have not seen that discussed much elsewhere.

A wealth tax seems impractical on many levels, including the increased burden of trying to document the value of your items for people of modest wealth levels. Unique or thinly traded luxury items have value that can't really be known until they are sold, which is why capital gains are taxed at the time of a sale. I'm thinking of a rare coin that might be $75,000 or $100,000.... you can't know the value until it goes up on the auction block. Same thing applies to real estate, antique cars, artwork, etc.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#226

Post by LatteLazy »

czbond wrote: post #127

Near 50% of American pay zero federal tax. The top 10% of all Americans pay 69% of all federal taxes currently. This is a point 'left out' of current discussions. Instead of increasing entitlements or adding yet more taxes - we lower the size of the government spending UNTIL it matches where most people pay for the services received in a more scaled manner. Source: https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-inc…

The top 10% of wage earners pay all the tax. But they're not the top 10% by wealth or unearned income. Those guys are getting off free. Reducing income tax by properly taxing inheritance, cap gains or wealth itself would help people who work for a living instead of sitting on their arses and jealousy guarding what their grandfather's grandfather's grandfather brought over from the old country.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#227

Post by robrenaud »

czbond wrote: post #127

Near 50% of American pay zero federal tax. The top 10% of all Americans pay 69% of all federal taxes currently. This is a point 'left out' of current discussions. Instead of increasing entitlements or adding yet more taxes - we lower the size of the government spending UNTIL it matches where most people pay for the services received in a more scaled manner. Source: https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-inc…

Also, Buffets effective tax rate is lower than his secretary's tax rate.

The gap between the rich and poor is growing, and has been doing so since 1980.

r > g is the biggest long term problem facing capitalist democracies.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#228

Post by czbond »

tw04 wrote: post #198
czbond wrote: post #127

Near 50% of American pay zero federal tax. The top 10% of all Americans pay 69% of all federal taxes currently. This is a point 'left out' of current discussions. Instead of increasing entitlements or adding yet more taxes - we lower the size of the government spending UNTIL it matches where most people pay for the services received in a more scaled manner. Source: https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-inc…

I like how you lump it up to top 10%. The top 1% of Americans pay 37% of the tax burden yet own over 60% of the wealth. They are grossly underpaying. Cutting entitlements and putting MORE of a financial burden on people who have nothing isn't going to fix the problem. AT BEST it'll result in massive social unrest and the end of the American Experiment. "I know you can't afford healthcare, and can barely afford food,…

A person is a person, fair and square to be treated equal - until we can extract more from ones pocketbook.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#229

Post by nickff »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #68
zdragnar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange. Business owner friends of mine have taken the opposite approach over the years. Taxes low? Start up something new, get it going. Taxes go up again? Sell it off (if they haven't already) and go back to early retirement doing whatever. Maybe it is largely the type of business that behavior changes. Their last venture was starting up an aquaponics farm in a borderline urban / suburban area, though I haven't kep…

> Taxes low? Start up something new, get it going. Taxes go up again? Sell it off (if they haven't already) and go back to early retirement doing whatever. Sure — if you're already wealthy enough to get by without any income, that might make sense. But for most business owners the alternative is "work for someone else", not "return to early retirement".

Well, you have to remember that taxes affect the expected outcome, as they reduce the upside of a positive outcome. Taxes do not mitigate the losses from a failure, and most people do not have the resources to sustain failures (without severe negative consequences).

By reducing the expected outcome of a new venture, taxes discourage marginal entrepreneurs from starting businesses.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#230

Post by zdragnar »

PrinceKropotkin wrote: post #55
zdragnar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange. Business owner friends of mine have taken the opposite approach over the years. Taxes low? Start up something new, get it going. Taxes go up again? Sell it off (if they haven't already) and go back to early retirement doing whatever. Maybe it is largely the type of business that behavior changes. Their last venture was starting up an aquaponics farm in a borderline urban / suburban area, though I haven't kep…

Federal taxes have been going down my whole life (born 1990 in the US). What era/region are you referring to where taxes go up?

Think state and local taxes. Depending on where you live and the type of business you run, they can add up quickly.

Also, the people I am speaking about were most definitely born before the 90's. More like 50's or 60's.

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