Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses • Hacker News Board

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#221

Post by username90 » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 11:45 PM UTC

contravariant wrote: post #109

Raphmedia wrote: post #56

I would be curious about what is the author's definition of the word "stupidity"? "Lack of judgment"? "Lack of knowledge"? "Unintelligent"? "Mental slowness in speech or action"? Perhaps, "Lack of education"? In a lot of the points, the author uses "smart" as the opposite of "stupid". Smart is also a vague word that comes up with multiple definitions such as "having or showing a high degree of mental ability", "styli…

It's disappointing how many examples in this thread are about lack of knowledge (or even just disagreeable beliefs). If intelligence is taken to be about manipulating the world around you then this is to some extent connected to the ability to obtain and verify knowledge but the ability to act upon that knowledge is far more important. True stupidity is almost by definition self-defeating. While I will admit that som…

I'd argue that good judgement of how reliable different pieces of information are is one of the most important aspects of intelligence. Some people are horribly bad at it while others are pretty good. In the long run this shapes what knowledge you have, so we can assume that someone who believe a lot of falsehoods isn't very smart. A smart individual can distill valuable information even when surrounded by propaganda while a dumb individual will still fall for a lot of propaganda even when surrounded by mostly correct information since they can't tell the difference.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#222

Post by dahart » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 11:46 PM UTC

tankenmate wrote: post #78

grenoire wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is too much information around for the average person to filter and process and digest. All three are important parts of living in a society and it looks to me like even with e.g. economic issues alone, it's just very hard for (to be fair) anybody to keep up. In turn, people reach out to conspiracy theories to simplify the world around them with obvious answers and explanations. My theory, sort of.

I have a similar vein of thought; Any sufficiently advanced technology (knowledge) is indistinguishable from magic -- Arthur C. Clarke So people just see competing ideas as a choice between two forms of magic. Add in identity politics and hey presto, changing their mind means denying themselves (a rather difficult thing for most to do). Add in Dunning-Kruger, through no fault of their own, and then people think there…

> Add in Dunning-Kruger, through no fault of their own, and then people think there is a rational reason for denying objective evidence.

No, this isn't true. References to Dunning-Kruger need to die. I haven't seen a case yet where using Dunning-Kruger to explain behavior is not misinformation.

Dunning-Kruger's data actually demonstrated that the more confident someone is in their ability, the higher their ability, statistically. There was a positive correlation in people's ability to judge themselves, in the experiments. The only question was why the correlation wasn't higher.

https://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/2010/07/07/what-the-dunning-...

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#223

Post by russellbeattie » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 11:47 PM UTC

On the flip side of this, ever seen the 1980s movie Teachers? A major plot point of the movie was that inner-city students in the 1970s and 80s were graduating high school being functionally illiterate. That was a real thing.

The universal adoption of information technologies like the smart phone has definitely not been the utopia many of us thought it would be. HOWEVER, there is no such thing as an illiterate teen any more.

For what it's worth, I think that's incredible progress for society as a whole.

Now we have to figure out how to provide universal quality education and prevent ignorance and misinformation from spreading. This is a different challenge that we weren't expecting to have to address.

Hopefully in 20 years we'll have addressed this issue as well and look back at the 2020s and be amazed that there were so many climate science deniers, flat-earthers, etc.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#224

Post by bamboozled » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 11:48 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #33

Counterintuitively, people love reading about and engaging in what they consider "stupidity". Internet companies capitalize on this by bringing an optimized stream of stupidity for your viewing pleasure. Take a look at the front page of Reddit (logged out, default subs): Half of the content highlights stupidity of others: /r/IdiotsInCars shows the worst drivers from around the world, /r/insanepeoplefacebook shows the…

Do you think that stupidity also is something which we’ve created a perfect environment for and which it can’t thrive ?

What were the consequences of acting foolishly and not concentrating 5000 years ago compared to today ? 50 years ago ?

Maybe you’d starve, maybe you’d get eaten by a lion, or ruin the hunt for food and your crops.

Today, that doesn’t seem relevant, you can spend all day believing in and talking nonsense and end up getting paid and receiving essentials. You won’t starve or freeze. You might even end up being the President of the United States by doing so.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#225

Post by seppin » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 12:18 AM UTC

Fricken wrote: post #183

seppin wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Throughout most of history people have believed wildly incorrect things, yet civilization carries on. Society has mostly been run by autocratic systems. If we are determined to make democracy work, conspiracy and anti-fact ideologies are existential threats.

Democracy has worked in the past because most members of said democratic societies believe largely the same things. They don't have to be the correct thing, they just have to be the same thing. This was easier when information was more tightly controlled and curated. The internet has opened us to a Babylonia of different belief systems, which is not so good for functioning civilizations. Free speech was easier to def…

> The internet has opened us to a Babylonia of different belief systems

With all due respect, there is nothing 'new' about QAnon. It's the same recycled theories about santanic pedophiles tweaked slightly to fit new surroundings. I would argue a new banality of evil that Facebook/Instagram/Twitter provides, where dangerous lies reside right next to actual news and photos of people's kids.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#226

Post by username90 » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 12:18 AM UTC

googthrowaway42 wrote: post #157

ironmagma wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but how is that irrational? It’s not using anything that’s contrary to rationality. It’s something that rationality fails to cover — you can’t find a rationale if you have no information to input into the system of rational thinking.

I'm using the term irrational to mean "not within the domain of the rational", not as a synonym for "stupid" or "folly".

It is rational to not waste time and energy thinking about things that are unlikely to matter. Being rational doesn't mean that you always make the correct choices according to some artificial metrics, it means that you make the correct choices based on the information available to you and your goals. Intuition and folk tales is a part of the information available to you, so keeping them in mind is a part of being rational (although you shouldn't put too much weight on them either).

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#227

Post by throwawaygh » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 12:27 AM UTC

googthrowaway42 wrote: post #57

throwawaygh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your world view is that Harvard professors are eveil and stupid, NY Times reporters are evil and stupid, most modern people are stupid, software engineers are stupid, PhDs are stupid, doctors are stupid, lawyers are stupid, no one has taken advice from their grandmother since 1785, and no one reads the Bible anymore. Is it possible that becoming an MD might require a base level of mental capabilities and hard work…

You're speaking in very black and white terms, but yes in general that is my view and like all historical trends these things tend to decrease or increase in their effect over time. It's not a binary thing. Certainly I am saying that the number of people who read the Bible has decreased as a percentage of the population substantially since 1785. > Is it possible that becoming an MD might require a base level of menta…

> 6. They’re not getting stupider; I’m just getting more conceited.

This seems like the most likely explanation in your case.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#228

Post by wobbly_bush » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 12:30 AM UTC

ihavequestions wrote: post #217

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #33

Counterintuitively, people love reading about and engaging in what they consider "stupidity". Internet companies capitalize on this by bringing an optimized stream of stupidity for your viewing pleasure. Take a look at the front page of Reddit (logged out, default subs): Half of the content highlights stupidity of others: /r/IdiotsInCars shows the worst drivers from around the world, /r/insanepeoplefacebook shows the…

I am convinced the world is "stupid", but it's not because I passively browse the front page of reddit more than I should. In fact, before you pointed out that it's mostly a stupidity concentrator (nice term btw), I didn't even notice that. When I read the front page of reddit I don't deduce the average intelligence of the participants by the most popular (mostly negative) posts of the day, I'm banking on the most up…

> You signal your intelligence when you show blatant disregard for the rules/law...There are so many reasons why people do this (not knowing any better/not believing they work comes from lack of education), but it all stems from lack of intelligence (in my opinion)

Coming from a country which had low enforcement of laws even before the pandemic(one of the reasons why it's still under "developing" category instead of "developed"), I doubt the disregard of law is due to lack of intelligence. On the contrary, the more intelligent/shrewd someone is, higher is their chance to get away disregarding the law(in these places). They are more selfish than stupid.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#229

Post by pdimitar » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 12:34 AM UTC

mdoms wrote: post #168

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #33

Counterintuitively, people love reading about and engaging in what they consider "stupidity". Internet companies capitalize on this by bringing an optimized stream of stupidity for your viewing pleasure. Take a look at the front page of Reddit (logged out, default subs): Half of the content highlights stupidity of others: /r/IdiotsInCars shows the worst drivers from around the world, /r/insanepeoplefacebook shows the…

One of the best pieces of advice I have taken recently is "stop using anger as entertainment" (you can substitute "incredulity", "smugness" or "schadenfreude" for "anger" to make it more applicable to the websites you listed).

I don't disagree but I had one very miserable period in my life when schadenfreude (laughing at other people suffering) was my only entertainment. I was full well aware of it but couldn't change it due to chemical imbalances of the brain, plus being physically very weak (it's hard to change habits when your human battery is always at the 10% mark).

So again, I agree with the premise but statements like yours could be infinitely more helpful by suggesting ways to stop using these toxic motivators for fun.

Re: Is Stupidity Expanding? Some Hypotheses

#230

Post by mikedilger » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 12:37 AM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #32

I've engaged a few flat earthers to actually listen to their arguments and show them my own evidence that it's real (locating amateur radio satellites using data shared by people around the globe and demonstrating the doppler effect on them). The response strikes me as being indicative of mental illness. And I don't mean that as an insult - I mean that when confronted with that they're clearly irrational. And somethi…

I think it's a failure of leadership.

I believe that stupidity is and has always been widespread and in normal times the more intelligent ideas have the widest subscription, even among the stupid. But when leaders fail to [be open, be objective, act in good faith, stick to the truth], then even the stupid can detect that they are being played and they rebel and seek alternative facts. So my theory is that leaders are currently gaming the populous rather than leading them, and that this is so obvious to everybody that trust in leadership and institutions has gone out the window.

Scott Adams has recently asserted that about 90% of what we are being told is not true. I'm don't concur with Scott on that figure, but clearly even smart people have lost trust in leaders/institutions. When the news refuses to report on 25% of newsworthy stories because they either make Trump look good or Biden look bad... when the news claims it's perfectly safe to protest BLM issues in the streets during a coronavirus pandemic... when even judges are clearly acting in bad faith (Julian Assange extradition case, Michael Flynn case)... when the Supreme Court becomes (or is perceived as becoming) the arm of a political party rather than an objective trustable institution, then the populous loses faith in the leaders/rules/institutions and we get widespread rioting, violence, a hell of a lot of stupid ideas, and perhaps hopefully some positive changed buried within all that somewhere.