Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#221

Post by ksk » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

dpratt wrote: post #103

danShumway wrote: post #11

Can we just link directly to the advocacy group's page ( https://appfairness.org/ )? I'm not certain the article is adding anything. ---- I'm generally supportive of at least some of Epic's arguments towards Apple, and I do believe that Apple (and multiple other FAANG companies) are engaged in anti-competitive behavior that's currently hurting the market. But a lot of the arguments I'm reading on the App Fairness sit…

This is a flawed analogy. The correct one would be Cheerios printing "If you buy me at Costco, I cost $1 less" on the outside of the box. No rational retailer that isn't Costco would carry that product.

Its not on the outside of the box, its on the inside. Apple forbids in-app discussion. I wonder what Apple would say if the app had a browser component that directs users to a web-page. These draconian rules are such a clusterF* hope these guys succeed.

BTW, all analogies are flawed in some manner or another. If you take away the abstraction, every single one breaks down. And then you end up talking about the intricacies of the thing you wanted to abstract away making it moot! :)

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#222

Post by andromeduck » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

That's such an arbitrary delineation. What consoles or in-app markets? Should epic also be forced to allow arbitrary third party on fornite store for example and Nintendo the switch? And why limit it to digital markets?

I feel like this is like trying to legislate walmart into leasing floor space to set up their own shops just because they don't want to pay their own stocking fees. It just makes no sense as anything other than a blatant attempt at regulatory capture which I'd argue is far more anti-competitive and extractive in spirit than what Apple/Google are doing.

The pro competitive move for these companies should do is team up with each other and create their own ecosystem like what Google did with Chrome and Android when they were freaked out at the prospects of an Apple and Microsoft controlled mobile space.

If they truly think they can provide so much more value to both devs and users but for the 30% app store fee then please actually do so and we'll all be better off. It's not like they're short on capital collectively.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#223

Post by 52-6F-62 » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #77

onion2k wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people talk about Apple having a monopoly they're referring to Apple having complete control over the sale of iOS software. There is no one else in that market. Apple has 100% market share.

Correct. The relevant terms are "horizontal monopoly" and "vertical monopoly." A horizontal monopoly is if one company made all the cars. A vertical monopoly is if one car manufacturer owned all the roads in Detroit and only their cars were authorized to drive on those roads. Apple is a vertical monopoly across its hardware, the software that runs on that hardware (they don't own the software, but they own the distri…

> A vertical monopoly is if one car manufacturer owned all the roads in Detroit and only their cars were authorized to drive on those roads.

That's not a good analogy. It's more like if you bought X's car model and X had a policy that you could only buy official, certified parts from certified dealers through which they get a cut. (App Store)

You can go for after market parts but if you break the car it's on you. ("Jailbreaking" AKA flashing your device)

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#224

Post by joshstrange » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #182

temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

For reference, all of these practices are abusive and will void the subscription contract in civil law (Europe). Ask for a refund and perform a charge back if they don't refund. I wrote a detailed article about it, what every developer should know about software subscriptions and civil law: https://thehftguy.com/2020/09/08/what-every-developer-should...

> For reference, all of these practices are abusive and will void the subscription contract in civil law (Europe). Ask for a refund and perform a charge back if they don't refund.

Do you think that really matters to or is realistic for the average non-technical user? Heck even as technical user I don't want to deal with that crap, I want 1 click unsubscribe which I get through App Store subscriptions.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#225

Post by tmotwu » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

nicetryguy wrote: post #75

I'm surprised at all of the negativity here. The changes proposed would be great for developers, even if (most) of the companies involved are shady, their reasons are selfish, and the obvious "astroturfiness" of the website is laughably dissonant and reeks like a dirty think tank that hasn't been cleaned in months. Apple has no qualms about absolutely screwing developers historically. I'm happy to see some pushback.

Not exactly sure if it's astroturfing, but there's definitely been a lot of non-devs commenting on this issue.

You can see this when they go off on some security tangent while the App Store is in fact host to thousands of malware in disguise. They trust that Apple is manually reviewing each and every App for security holes, that's why the App Store exists in the first place and totally why there's a 30% toll. I'm starting to imagine it's not really about security but about the illusion of security for a lot of people.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#226

Post by ksk » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #86

From https://appfairness.org/our-vision/ > No app store owner should prohibit third parties from offering competing app stores on the app store owner’s platform, or discourage developers or consumers from using them. I don't disagree but does this mean Sony should allow, for example, Steam to be installed on the PS5? Or is the definition of "App Store" used here narrow and arbitrary?

Its a vision document that outlines their vision. Nobody gets 100% of what they want anyway.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#227

Post by ViViDboarder » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #128

AlexandrB wrote: post #86

From https://appfairness.org/our-vision/ > No app store owner should prohibit third parties from offering competing app stores on the app store owner’s platform, or discourage developers or consumers from using them. I don't disagree but does this mean Sony should allow, for example, Steam to be installed on the PS5? Or is the definition of "App Store" used here narrow and arbitrary?

Well they never want to take this to its logical conclusion which is every manufacturer would have to provide the means for anyone, including direct competitors, a means to sell software through their device. So do we also force any app store owner to also provide access to their payment services as well? If Apple is forced to open the iPhone do they also have to grant access to the phones secure means of payments? T…

Why would they have to open up secure payments? Is that an API that first party apps on the App Store access? Or are the apps that access it part of the operating system?

This is mostly targeted at apps like Apple Music where Apple allows deep Siri integration without allowing the same to competing apps.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#228

Post by bzb5 » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #167

temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

> Like, physically holding back tears. Serious.

Time to step away from the computer, miss.

Regarding the rest of your comment: sorry to say this but the internet is freer now than 10 years ago. More people are online talking and collaborating with each other in new and more interesting ways. There’s more and better access to culture more than there’s ever been.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#229

Post by echelon » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

croissants wrote: post #216

echelon wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

Genuine question, can you expand on what you mean by this: > Before they stood up the walls, I could reach all the people I wanted for free. What are you referring to? Blogging, social networks, forums, etc.?

The web and web downloads were 100% of the distribution channel.

Now you can't distribute binaries without oversight and taxation.

Also, web browsers on mobile are much less capable than on desktop.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#230

Post by temp667 » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #168

izacus wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting how there's so many posts here attacking the companies behind the action (ad hominem style) by specifying actions that have nothing to do with the abuses Apple and AppStore do. Is this targeted?

If you're asking "is it possible for multiple people to be so annoyed by the business practises of tech giants that they complain about it online even when not directly related to the topic at hand"... yeah, yeah it is. No need to look for a conspiracy here.

I spent months dealing with myheritages uncancelable auto-renewal. Others make you cancel 30 days in advance, but not more than 90 days in advance, with a phone call that runs you through dumb menus

At some point you have a life, kids, wife, etc and playing these games is not worth it. Apple markets to those of us who even though tech savvey don't want to play the game some of these big scammer / microtransaction folks want to play.