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The Programmer Salary Taboo

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Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#221

Post by plus2 »

We need to remember "you are not your salary". Comments like "an insulting $60,000" or "only $100,000" makes me shake my head. Your salary is not something you have to brag about.Your worth is not determined by your salary. A developer can create millions of dollars in value. Think how much value DHH created with Rails or Linus with Git and Linux. Or Damien with CouchDB. Remember Steve Jobs salary is $1 a year.

Our goal as hackers is to create value, millions of dollars worth of value. This salary talk makes us look like programmers not hackers.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#222

Post by sceaj »

So, I'm most certain that I'm being given the shaft by my employer.

A coworker recently quit, because he felt underpaid (his previous job paid him over 10% more). Negotiations with HR got him nowhere, so he left.

The coworker and I had identical jobs, and we did them in the same capacity, with very similar skill levels. When he left, he disclosed everything to me. Despite being underpaid, he was still being paid significantly higher than I am (almost 25% more).

Of course, I'm no longer happy with my pay, but don't really know what to do about it. I don't have the flexibility to just leave town, and I'm in a town that just isn't hiring developers right now ("metro"=200k). I've applied to places far away, but just without much luck. I thought if I got an offer, I'd have some arguing room. But I don't; I don't have anything. Besides, if my employer doesn't budge, I'm not prepared to take the leap. I can't leave town because my wife is in school here, now.

I started at a lower pay rate, because they hired me without a college degree. I've been working for them for three years now, and have been moving up in pay, but I started so low that it hasn't amounted to much.

I think a huge part of my problem is that I don't have a college degree. I think that I've obviously shown that I'm capable of doing the job, regardless, though. How much should the degree really matter? I've seriously been considering applying to a lower tier school (I mean low tier state school, not U of Phoenix, etc.) for a degree completion program, just so I can pad my resume up some. I don't know if that hurts more than it helps, though. I did already finish up the handful of courses I needed for the A.S. from the local community college.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#223

Post by joerobot »

patr1ck wrote: post #216
joerobot wrote: post #184

Wow, this article comes in perfect timing for me. Hopefully, you, the HN community could help me. I am currently being offered a software engineering job at Apple through a recruiting company. What I want to know is, how much should I be asking for? I am 4 months out of college (no Ivy league, just a state college) with little professional experience. So far, I have said $50k, but is that low-balling it? Should I be…

I'm confused – Why wouldn't Apple pay you directly? You shouldn't have to ask for anything, they should present you with an offer. Meanwhile, you should do appropriate due diligence and interview with other companies that interest you and see what other offers you get. If Apple is interested in hiring you, no doubt other companies will be too. Also: keep in mind that relocating will incur at least a few thousand doll…

Thanks, I'll be talking to the recruiter about an offer. Part of the problem is that when I was asked about it, I was basing the salary off of what someone in South Louisiana would make as a junior developer. At the time, I did not have any knowledge of what the salary of someone similar in the Bay Area would be.

I was told that the recruiting company (TekSystems) would be paying me. However, I will ask the recruiter for further clarification.

The job is a contract job and located at the Cupertino campus. So far, I have not had an interview with Apple and have only completed an assessment for the recruiting company. The recruiter has been the middle-man between anyone at Apple and I so far.

When I asked if relocation assistance would be provided, I was given an answer of no. Any suggestions as to negotiating a way to get assistance?

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#224

Post by dezwald »

I find that in canada (toronto, ontario) programmers are not paid near the amounts of programmers in the US.

5 years ago i started at 40K (working in Hamilton). Now living in toronto, and i find that newly graduate programmers start around 50K-60K, and senior programmers make anywhere between 80K-100K.

I feel that living toronto/ontario, programmers are utilized as tradesmen, where they service the industry (corporations, banks, publications, marketing firms etc...)

I just wish there was more of a tech/startup industry in toronto, like there is in California, Boston, New York, etc..

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#225

Post by daemin »

patio11 wrote: post #214
MrFoof wrote: post #62

Salaries never stay secrets forever. Hiding them only delays the inevitable. Last year we were having a discussion at lunch. Coworker was building a new house, and when it came to the numbers it was let loose that it was going to cost about $700K. This didn't seem like much, except to a young guy that joined the previous year and had done nothing but kick ass and take names. The new guy was arguably the most talented…

That guy could have been me. Modest upbringing, lean living, doormat at negotiations, accepting absurdly low compensation because it seemed like the thing to do at the time, check check check. I'm glad he is doing better now. That said, mission effing accomplished for the company: they're well north of a million dollars richer because good little kids don't drop their drawers or talk salary numbers. This topic makes…

Loved your tweets on salary negotiations from last night, pity I haven't properly followed through on them in recent times.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#226

Post by nixy »

jrockway wrote: post #2

I've always wanted to write exactly this blog post. Keeping your salary confidential is great for big companies, but it benefits you in no way. You should be making what your coworkers make. If you make less, you're being fucked, plain and simple. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can remedy the situation. Sadly, some people go their whole careers without doing so. FWIW, my first programming job only paid $…

My first was, in 2007, $46k. I'm still at the same company, now making $70k nearly four years later. (I'm 25, doing web programming, in Sweden)

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#227

Post by schintan »

wging wrote: post #94
MrFoof wrote: post #62

Salaries never stay secrets forever. Hiding them only delays the inevitable. Last year we were having a discussion at lunch. Coworker was building a new house, and when it came to the numbers it was let loose that it was going to cost about $700K. This didn't seem like much, except to a young guy that joined the previous year and had done nothing but kick ass and take names. The new guy was arguably the most talented…

$175/hour * 40 hours/week * 50 weeks/year = $350,000/year, for anyone else (like me) who can't immediately estimate equivalent yearly rates.

Much shorter, just double the hourly rate for yearly salary in K's.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#228

Post by otoburb »

GrooveStomp wrote: post #43
joezydeco wrote: post #15

My teeth always grind when I read articles like this. Yes, you can make $100K at Google. In Mountain View, California. How does that correlate to someone doing the same job in Austin, Seattle, Chicago, or Cleveland? The cost of living swings greatly when you depart the west coast. Decent wage databases will add another variable to the position and experience axes: the geographic area where the job is offered. (Exampl…

I wonder what the difference is like between Canada and the States? It must be lower in Canada, even in Vancouver, BC with all the expenses here. Still, I'm sure I'm making well below what I should be. Well, whatever the situation, I'm happy I'm working at a fantastic place with great people and interesting work! I also make far more money than I need to live comfortably. [edit] I make far less than $100 000.

I am guessing that one of the biggest differences between total compensation packages between hiring Canadians vs. Americans is that companies don't have to pay for health care costs for their employees based in Canada. This is mainly because health care is funded from our income tax.

I believe health insurance is a factor for Americans when choosing a job, but may not be as large a factor for Canadians.

From a company standpoint, this should mean that Canadians may be cheaper to hire (although, given that CDN is higher than USD at the moment, this may not hold).

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#229

Post by gibybo »

nvarsj wrote: post #195
tzs wrote: post #36

Wait...Google starts at $100k/year for people fresh out of college with an undergraduate degree? So what do they go up to for people with experience?

I think the best, non-hearsay source for this is anonymous data at glassdoor.com. Google has quite a lot of data there as well (over 500 reports from San Jose/Mountain View). http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Software-Engineer-San... 533 Salaries - Mean is 107,174, with a range of [70, 133]. Median is about 100K. Bonuses are underreported in comparison. But of 24 reports, the bonus is 18K on average. This includ…

Their reporting is a little weird, for example:

Google Software Engineer, 1-3 years of experience: Salary: 90k Cash bonus: 16.7k Stock bonus: 8.5k

Together it comes to 115k, but the average total pay is listed as 102.6k.

Re: The Programmer Salary Taboo

#230

Post by bricestacey »

lukev wrote: post #61
michaelochurch wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. First of all, workplace social conflicts develop very fast and are often irrational in nature. If salaries are public knowledge, then people have time to accept that there's just that one incompetent guy making 20% more than he should and within a few hours they forget about it. It's mildly annoying, but as long as people are happy with what they're making and with their own job security, they aren't goin…

>people have time to accept that there's just that one incompetent guy making 20% more than he should and within a few hours they forget about it. Really? I'm not sure about that. >My contention is that people discover a lot of this information anyway and get more angry in a private-salary system. I've never personally heard of a person getting upset upon discovering someone else's private salary. I know lots of peop…

I'm a state employee and my salary is public so take my experiences for a grain of salt if you work in the private sector.

We do get pissed about people making more money for less work, but we get over it. The people in it until retirement (and their 80% pension) know they're sitting on too sweet a deal to care. Those that know they're temporary either acknowledge it's temporary (e.g. I'm leaving soon after I get my diploma) or couldn't get much of a better deal anyway. In other words, our complaint is less about our situation (cuz if we wanted different, we'd have gone off and gotten it) and more a critique on HR's assessment of value, like armchair quarterbacking for HR or something like that...

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