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ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

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Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#221

Post by nonbirithm »

xupybd wrote: post #203
nonbirithm wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want a more ergonomic keyboard since I may be developing wrist problems, but I don't understand why none of them seem to have function keys. I use the function keys all the time and when I switch to a 40% layout I get seriously annoyed by the lack of them and end up going back to a full layout keyboard because of it. I spent twenty minutes searching for a split keyboard with function keys and found only one thread…

Have you looked at the kenesis advantage? Solved my wrist problems and it has function keys.

The Kinesis does look pretty interesting, I'm doing some research on it. $349 seems a bit pricey, but at least it does have the full key layout (even if the function keys are rubber).

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#222

Post by MivLives »

nico_h wrote: post #180
nextos wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love mechanical keyboards. My favorite switch is ALPS. But IMHO, the most ergonomic switches are low-travel ones. They increase my typing speed, reduce latency and make long sessions effortless. Luckily, low-travel versions of many good quality keyboard switches are being produced and developed more often now to cater the gaming market. For a simple, readily available option, I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more th…

for low profile mech keyboard in traditional arrangement, there is the keychron. For low profile switches there is the Kailh Choc family, though there is a limited choice of caps.

The new MBK caps for them are getting some good reviews. Though the one downside of Choc caps is they are directional. Some of the split layouts need 2u vertical and that just doesn't exist.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#223

Post by Symbiote »

cfontes wrote: post #95
striking wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A keyboard is a tool, and for people who type on theirs 40+ hours a week, a couple hundred here or there is a rounding error at the end of the year. I bought a ZSA keyboard (not this one) due to otherwise having to type on a crappy butterfly keyboard on a laptop provided by work (when my E key started repeating, I knew I was over it). I could've bought some sort of crappy rubber dome thing, but I didn't. And I'm very…

I am among those people, 2 programming jobs, 12 hours a day typing non stop, for 15 years so far. I am probably super lucky but have never had an issue on my wrists and have used every single shitty keyboard you can think of. I love an ergonomic keyboard, but it costs 50 dollars maybe? This is not that, this is something else.

$300 or whatever it is is a lot, but in the USA it's a rounding error compared to the cost of healthcare for a problem like RSI, and in Europe it's a rounding error for a business compared to the cost of an employee unable to work, or suing because they were not given appropriate (i.e. ergonomic) tools. A DIY version (solder it yourself) is half the cost, but insurance/employer won't buy that.

For others, it's a tool they use for many hours every day. I spent €10 on my kitchen knives, and my friend who is a professional chef is appalled, but I wouldn't want to use his €200 laptop every day.

They're probably only going to sell a few thousand, so there isn't the economy of scale that makes something like a Microsoft Sculpt $100. Finally, it's made from individual components (key switches), so should be easily repairable if a single key should fail, but also took a lot more time to assemble. It ought to last many years.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#224

Post by MivLives »

bostonvaulter2 wrote: post #205
benji-york wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For another take on thumb clusters, check out the Diverge: https://unikeyboard.io/product/diverge/

That layout looks nice! Would be good to compare it to the Moonlander, I wish there was somewhere I could try out these different keyboards in person.

When we're out of virus times look for a mechanical keyboard meet up near you. A lot of times you'll run into a ton of people who will want nothing more then talk to you about their choice of split keyboard.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#225

Post by MivLives »

cuddlybacon wrote: post #168

This is interesting. I have an ergodox, well two of them, and I think this does improve on the design. I read a user comment somewhere that said that the ergodox seems like the design got solidified when there were still improvements to be made, and for me that has been true. Let's talk about some changes they made that I really like: * The left side is the primary. If I ever want half a keyboard, I'll want just the…

There's defiantly layouts that have been made with the thumb buttons moved in. The Iris[1] or Corne[2] for example. Though you're now in custom keyboard territory which means you're either building it yourself, or finding a person/company to assemble it for you.

[1] https://alexjj.com/images/iris-example.jpg

[2] https://alexjj.com/images/iris-example.jpg

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#226

Post by least »

nonbirithm wrote: post #221
xupybd wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you looked at the kenesis advantage? Solved my wrist problems and it has function keys.

The Kinesis does look pretty interesting, I'm doing some research on it. $349 seems a bit pricey, but at least it does have the full key layout (even if the function keys are rubber).

The Kinesis Advantage 2 does not use rubber dome switches for its function. They are cherry ml switches.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#227

Post by autocorr »

nonbirithm wrote: post #165
tom_ wrote: post #76

I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work. (Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they wa…

I want a more ergonomic keyboard since I may be developing wrist problems, but I don't understand why none of them seem to have function keys. I use the function keys all the time and when I switch to a 40% layout I get seriously annoyed by the lack of them and end up going back to a full layout keyboard because of it. I spent twenty minutes searching for a split keyboard with function keys and found only one thread…

Well they are more time consuming and expensive to build for hobbyists, but I think that the main reason is that when you get a fully programmable keyboard it enables a lot of useful features that obviate things like dedicated function keys and the number pad. Using a columnar/grid key layout the number pad is strictly obviated by a layer switch to number pad keys under the right hand, and I use the same layer on my left hand for the function keys. It's honestly a lot easier this way having F1 thru F4 on the homerow. Coupled with "sticky modifiers" so that they can be tapped instead of being held down to do things like Alt+F4 I don't have any desire to go back to dedicated function keys.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#228

Post by Asooka »

ohazi wrote: post #127

The columnar layout thesis ("your fingers move vertically, not horizontally!") is wrong. Your fingers can move both vertically and horizontally, but moving them vertically requires tensioning and releasing the tendons that travel through the carpal tunnel, while moving them from side to side does not. It's the exact opposite of what you want to be doing if you have wrist RSI. I got partway through an Ergodox build be…

Well, from personal experience, normal keyboards give me wrist pain, even mechanical ones, while the ergodox does not. Obviously everyone is different and the movements that cause me pain may be comfortable for you, but it's not right to say that the columnar layout is inherently flawed. If it were cheaper, I would advise you to try for yourself and see, but as it stands if a normal keyboard works for you, there is probably no reason for you to switch.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#229

Post by ianhowson »

least wrote: post #226
nonbirithm wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Kinesis does look pretty interesting, I'm doing some research on it. $349 seems a bit pricey, but at least it does have the full key layout (even if the function keys are rubber).

The Kinesis Advantage 2 does not use rubber dome switches for its function. They are cherry ml switches.

Cherry ML are terrible. I'd prefer rubber domes.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#230

Post by johnm »

bostonvaulter2 wrote: post #206
mohaine wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. After using Advantage2 for 10ish years I can't really go back to a flat keyboard. I liked my Keyboardio Model 1 but the Advantage2 is just more comfortable. I love the idea of customization but the flatness has me looking at all these as non-starters.

How does the customizability of the Advantage2 compare to the Ergodox EZ?

Nowhere close.

There are DIY mods that people have done to be able to run e.q., QMK as well as make them bluetooth.

My impression is that people who really want the concave keywells are building variations of the Dactyl Manuform.

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