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Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

latimes.com

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Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#221

Post by whiddershins »

NohatCoder wrote: post #184
AHappyCamper wrote: post #78

I understand that there are a lot of people who are hurting right now, and I empathize with their pain, but how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other or convey important information to the public if we believe there might be serious reprisals against us if we "say the wrong thing". For example, I personally helped work against slavery on the Black Market in the Middle East, and I wanted…

>All speech besides threats of violence needs to be free, or we can't progress as a society. The problem with that simple rule is that there is no simple way to distinguish threats. Take a statement like "I don't think black people deserve to live", technically not worded as a threat, but the sentiment is no different. Similar examples varying in strength, obfuscation and contextual meaning can be produced in unlimit…

No. That’s logically flawed. We’ve seen this already, where this argument is being used to arbitrarily curtail all sorts of speech.

By this argument almost any idea you disagree with could be considered a threat, and honestly, it seems like it is human nature to sort of behave as if ideas that are ‘bad’ are a threat to my safety.

It takes effort to fight that impulse.

We need very narrow exceptions to free speech: specific incitements to violence seem to be one.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#222

Post by sam_goody »

imgabe wrote: post #82
AHappyCamper wrote: post #78

I understand that there are a lot of people who are hurting right now, and I empathize with their pain, but how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other or convey important information to the public if we believe there might be serious reprisals against us if we "say the wrong thing". For example, I personally helped work against slavery on the Black Market in the Middle East, and I wanted…

Part of the issue is that some people consider any speech they disagree with as a threat of violence or "endangering my safety".

On HN, if you disagree with a comment, you downvote it and punish the author. (Or, at least, that is the common way to respond, and for good reason - the only "disagree" button is the one that hurts the credit of the OP)

This especially hurts new commenters, whose credit is fragile (and who don't know the cap on down-votes). Which keeps the conversation "safe", and the lurkers quiet.

Cynical me thinks this is a reflection of a society that thinks we need to quiet (and punish) everyone who disagrees with them.

EDIT: Replaced "he" with a gender neutral term to be safe.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#223

Post by lr4444lr »

smt88 wrote: post #33
drtillberg wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A chaplin recently had to resign in apology at a distinguished academic institution for ... making factual and insightful comments about the George Floyd incident.[1] McCarthy eventually was shamed and disgraced by his casual destructiveness. "Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" [1] https://nypost.com/2020/06/17/mit-chaplain-resigns-over-em…

Saying someone "didn't live a virtuous life" is not factual. In this case, it's an irrelevant and tasteless opinion about a victim. It implies Floyd somehow deserved to be shot in the back and killed.

The utterer was a Chaplain. This is a main aspect of what they are hired for: to remind us of the moral judgments of the religious tradition they were trained in. They're not just psychotherapists who wear funny clothing, and they aren't PERSONALLY setting those rules about the virtuous life. Maybe you don't want chaplains, which is an argument, but that's separate.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#224

Post by [deleted] »

AHappyCamper wrote: post #211
mynameishere wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you are genuinely worried about terminology you can call that what it is, the "white slave trade". It's ancient, extensive, and completely, 100 percent, not taught in schools. So there's a lesson there too.

a. Sometimes there isn't time to craft the perfectly non-offensive message. You need to be able to freely communicate, or the hesitation can easily cost someone their life. b. I'm sure there are people who would be offended by the term you used too. If everything is potentially offense, then at a certain point it becomes very hard to say anything, even if you're trying to stop slavery.

[deleted]

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#225

Post by finder83 »

missosoup wrote: post #37
cwhiz wrote: post #34

Shouting people down in public and on the internet doesn’t change opinions. People just talk more quietly or take more care with whom they share their thoughts and opinions. Cancel culture, outrage culture, and the general “social justice” movement is not much more than a wide scale attempt to silence dissenting thought. Build your own bubble, and shout down anyone who thinks or speaks differently. Yell and call it “…

This is an excellent summary of what's going on. Firing, cancelling, and silencing anyone with a 'bad' opinion doesn't convert them to a 'good' one. Instead it makes them more hostile and causes them to double down. I'm pretty confused how America keeps going down this path even after an actual 50% of the entire population revolted against the 'good' ideologies and voted in Trump with religious fervour. Pretending th…

Exactly. I think seeing people being attacked is also causing others to double down. I don't know what to expect, but I wouldn't be surprised based on my conversations with conservatives who have been mostly silent if it backfires again and Trump wins in a landslide.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#226

Post by raxxorrax »

jmchuster wrote: post #201
AHappyCamper wrote: post #78

I understand that there are a lot of people who are hurting right now, and I empathize with their pain, but how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other or convey important information to the public if we believe there might be serious reprisals against us if we "say the wrong thing". For example, I personally helped work against slavery on the Black Market in the Middle East, and I wanted…

You can definitely choose to go down a route of "these people get offended and it's completely irrational and unjustified, and they are wrong to do so, so to teach them a lesson i'm going to shut my mouth and complain to everyone about how they are bad people that are forcing me to self-restrict my freedom of speech and as a result they are actively helping the slave trade". Or you might also consider the route of "t…

I don't think this is feasible since you would need constant appeasement and the source of offense often cannot be deconstructed by argument. For an idealistic approach it is well intentioned, but that would gradually shift the level of accepted speech towards a form of orthodoxy. The stigmatization of feeling superior for more eccentric speech is an example of that actually.

Look at history where the "moral" authority suppressed speech, it will end up just like that. There are also people that lie about being offended. Reaching out is falling into a trap in that case.

The dichotomy of these "routes" is wrong. A discussion must not be an argument, even if internet exposure lets you believe otherwise, but it can be.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#227

Post by zarkov99 »

Mangalor wrote: post #215
zarkov99 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Damore wrote an essay basically arguing women and minorities should be incapable of joining the software profession based on their genetics. That is completely false and you should be ashamed if yourself for spreading such blatant lies. I urge anyone reading your comment to check for themselves and read Damore's essay, which was well researched, rational and compassionate, the exact opposite of the kind of libel th…

I often find that the usual so-called defenders of free speech do not hesitate for one moment with that libel charge whenever they encounter an opinion they happen to disagree with.

I often find that those whose favorite rethorical tool is lying much prefer to slander their opponents rather than attempt to refute their points.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#228

Post by whiddershins »

nonsince wrote: post #191
ngngngng wrote: post #177

I argued with a family member about this just the other day. She was trying to get a faculty member at a local university fired for saying something offensive on Twitter. I asked her what happens after we get him fired? Can he earn back the worthiness to again feed his family? Will he need to denounce his views or just stop spewing them publicly? Will he just need to collect unemployment for the rest of his life now…

People with racist or otherwise regressive views know that these views will (rightly) get them criticised by the majority, and so they won't couch them in those terms precisely, but it's often very clear when you take context into account. I can't speak for this exact case, because we don't know what his exact words were, but it's telling that even your defence of him describes him criticising protesters at a time wh…

You are trying to say you can infer racism, and you need to do that to identify the racists because they won’t speak their racism openly?

Can you see how that is a recipe for attacking people and ruining their lives based on something that in the end might be imagined?

Do you see how easily that becomes ... anyone who disagrees with any opinion I have is evil?

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#229

Post by raxxorrax »

ngngngng wrote: post #177

I argued with a family member about this just the other day. She was trying to get a faculty member at a local university fired for saying something offensive on Twitter. I asked her what happens after we get him fired? Can he earn back the worthiness to again feed his family? Will he need to denounce his views or just stop spewing them publicly? Will he just need to collect unemployment for the rest of his life now…

The thing is that these groups (yeah, yeah, always with the generalizations) preach empathy but have no trouble to get people fired, their families too if possible. I think they behave this way because of pressure from social media and racism and sexism are used as some form of emotional sink.

Maybe that is too harsh on them in contrast of people just flaming random people by random characteristics, but they do have real institutional support.

Re: Those who exercise free speech should also defend it even when it’s offensive

#230

Post by Diggsey »

jmchuster wrote: post #201
AHappyCamper wrote: post #78

I understand that there are a lot of people who are hurting right now, and I empathize with their pain, but how can we share out most wonderful and beautiful ideas with each other or convey important information to the public if we believe there might be serious reprisals against us if we "say the wrong thing". For example, I personally helped work against slavery on the Black Market in the Middle East, and I wanted…

You can definitely choose to go down a route of "these people get offended and it's completely irrational and unjustified, and they are wrong to do so, so to teach them a lesson i'm going to shut my mouth and complain to everyone about how they are bad people that are forcing me to self-restrict my freedom of speech and as a result they are actively helping the slave trade". Or you might also consider the route of "t…

> I'm going to work to listen to them and talk with them one by one until i do understand on a core level how they feel and where those feelings are derived from,

Many of the people who are actually condemned for being offensive are condemned by the media or by some third party who's being offended on behalf of someone else, who we never get to actually hear from, and who might not even exist.

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