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Video Games Are the Future of Education

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Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#221

Post by usrusr »

shafyy wrote: post #143
speeder wrote: post #59

I own a educational game company. Long story short: it doesn't sell. At my company we identified, at least if your target is kids, two ways to sell edu games. 1. Sell them to institutions, like governments, schools, companies, whatever. Thing is, the features they look when choosing a game to buy, are ones most likely to make the game unfun, the end result is often boring stuff noone WANTS to play. 2. Sell them to th…

We also tried to make educational games and came to a similar conclusion. The truth is, kids (or adults) don't want to play "educational" games. They just want to play fun games. And, let's be honest, games that try to teach you math or science are just not as fun as Fortnite or Minecraft. Now, you can make the case that some games are educational by mistake. Like Minecraft, Age of Empires, Sim City or Kerbal Space P…

Every game that contains an element of simulation that strives for realism is educational in that you walk out knowing a lot more about the simulated topic than before, often more than you ever wanted, and often more than what's in the sim. E.g. when I was playing counterstrike I found myself embarrassingly well-read in the Wikipedia pages about the history of modern firearms. Who would have guessed that "the Startgate gun" isn't just a very creative movie prop?

But this kind of knowledge acquisition only ever teaches the lowest hanging fruits, it's no substitute for drilling in the basics. Even lifetimes spent passing KSP won't bring you to a point were you could design your own rocket.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#222

Post by bananamerica »

ksdale wrote: post #165
c3534l wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think Maxis actually tells you the best way to be a success. Maxis doesn't say their games are educational and players don't feel like they're trying to be. But they were, and Maxis wanted them to be. I've heard Will Wright talk about giving his kids things like microscopes as "toys" that let them play and explore which causes them to sort of learn against their best intentions. If I were to get into the educ…

I think the indirect approach is very underrated. Our kids have all learned to read ahead of “schedule” because they wanted to understand what was happening in their games, and they’re all also coming along very quickly at arithmetic because of needing to manage the economy of whatever game they’re playing. As a kid, I picked up a familiarity with history and geography that was miles ahead of my peers due to games li…

A personal anecdote: I bought my first English dictionary to understand 1992’s Alone in the Dark. I’d probably not be talking with you guys and girls if not for videogames. I had no interest whatsoever in learning English, I just wanted to beat the games. If someone assigned me the very same game for educational purposes, I’d hate it by default.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#223

Post by ryneandal »

ksdale wrote: post #165
c3534l wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would think Maxis actually tells you the best way to be a success. Maxis doesn't say their games are educational and players don't feel like they're trying to be. But they were, and Maxis wanted them to be. I've heard Will Wright talk about giving his kids things like microscopes as "toys" that let them play and explore which causes them to sort of learn against their best intentions. If I were to get into the educ…

I think the indirect approach is very underrated. Our kids have all learned to read ahead of “schedule” because they wanted to understand what was happening in their games, and they’re all also coming along very quickly at arithmetic because of needing to manage the economy of whatever game they’re playing. As a kid, I picked up a familiarity with history and geography that was miles ahead of my peers due to games li…

> I think people innately want to learn whatever they need to know to accomplish their goals

Bingo. Both my parents are retired teachers, and both focused on high-risk student populations (my father at adolescent correctional facilities, and my mother with "troubled children that had learning disabilities at specialized facilities). Both with the freedom to implement alternative means of education as opposed to standardized public school curriculum.

They both found incredible success in teaching by focusing on a individual child's interests and goals. It's easy to do so in the context of parenting, but much more difficult in a school setting. Implementation of such an idea is beyond my pay grade, but I think there's promise in identifying goals/motivation and personalizing education.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#224

Post by jfarmer »

I replied to the author, here: https://twitter.com/jfarmer/status/1274828706893066240

I think the author falls into the trap of "transmissionism". There's a universe of facts out there and students learn them one after another by interacting with the environment (directly, via a teacher, via simulation, via textbook, whatever).

But take an example like learning how to cook a medium-rare steak. "Cook the steak until it feels like the flesh on your cheek."

What does it mean to "learn" that lesson? Anyone can say it out loud, obviously, even someone who has never cooked a steak.

The lesson about becoming sensitive to what a medium rare steak feels like when touched. What "simulation" or "video game" can capture that without reaching Matrix-like levels of fidelity?

As Carl Sagan said: "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."

When you simulate, you're creating _some_ universe first, but you have no way of knowing if it's faithful to _our_ universe.

Better to start with the actual environment and help people improve the way they pay attention, react to the feedback they're already receiving without realizing, build better tools to navigate unfamiliar terrain, etc.

Let our universe work for you rather than having to invent the universe before you even start.

People might object to the steak example or might try to carve out things that require "physical" knowledge, but I think people underestimate how much of programming is like learning to cook a steak.

What are you going to "simulate" in order to develop a coding student's ability to detect "code smells", for example? Developing that sense isn't just about memorizing the 198723 things that count as a code smell. Most programmers can't even explain _why_ something is a code smell in a simulatable way, which is why we describe via metaphor to a sense rather than an acquired skill.

But unlike our sense of smell it's _obviously_ acquired. Nobody's born with the ability to detect code smells.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#225

Post by ashtonkem »

speeder wrote: post #59

I own a educational game company. Long story short: it doesn't sell. At my company we identified, at least if your target is kids, two ways to sell edu games. 1. Sell them to institutions, like governments, schools, companies, whatever. Thing is, the features they look when choosing a game to buy, are ones most likely to make the game unfun, the end result is often boring stuff noone WANTS to play. 2. Sell them to th…

One of the great challenges of the 21st century is that what the markets are rewarding seems to be tenuously connected to the public good, at best.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#226

Post by thewarrior »

anonytrary wrote: post #189

Mentorship is the future of education -- it's all about minimizing the teacher to student ratio. Video games are a creative way to present content, but also deprive students of other essential inputs for education. Saying that video games are the future of education is like saying in 1999 that MS Office is the future of education. Maybe everyone will be consuming homework and lessons through video games, but no video…

Mentorship isn't the future it's the past and the ideal. We've had examples of this since Plato and Socrates. In the Indian tradition apprenticing under a guru has been THE way to acquire knowledge of both spiritual and artistic subjects like Indian classical music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru%E2%80%93shishya_tradition

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#227

Post by vageli »

ryneandal wrote: post #223
ksdale wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the indirect approach is very underrated. Our kids have all learned to read ahead of “schedule” because they wanted to understand what was happening in their games, and they’re all also coming along very quickly at arithmetic because of needing to manage the economy of whatever game they’re playing. As a kid, I picked up a familiarity with history and geography that was miles ahead of my peers due to games li…

> I think people innately want to learn whatever they need to know to accomplish their goals Bingo. Both my parents are retired teachers, and both focused on high-risk student populations (my father at adolescent correctional facilities, and my mother with "troubled children that had learning disabilities at specialized facilities). Both with the freedom to implement alternative means of education as opposed to stand…

> > I think people innately want to learn whatever they need to know to accomplish their goals

> Bingo. Both my parents are retired teachers, and both focused on high-risk student populations (my father at adolescent correctional facilities, and my mother with "troubled children that had learning disabilities at specialized facilities). Both with the freedom to implement alternative means of education as opposed to standardized public school curriculum.

> They both found incredible success in teaching by focusing on a individual child's interests and goals. It's easy to do so in the context of parenting, but much more difficult in a school setting. Implementation of such an idea is beyond my pay grade, but I think there's promise in identifying goals/motivation and personalizing education.

I used to teach and had many kids tell me on their first day that they hated reading and _hated_ writing (with their parents echoing the same). I hold the notion that reading is almost like an automatic process once learned—put a cereal box on the table during dinner and you almost can't avoid reading it. People _want_ to read. Aligning the material with the kid's interests is the surest way to progress. Couple that with writing prompts that are in the same genre and even the parents wouldn't believe that this child who is suddenly consuming a book a week is their own.

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#228

Post by throwawaygh »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #191
throwawaygh wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes to everything about the US system having some serious problems and being fairly unique relative to the rest of the world. > Software will eventually be able to read an essay and provide feedback on how well the argument was made, as well as the nuts and bolts of how sentences are put together... Imagine for example the task is to convince an AI to buy you a pony. You have to write a persuasive essay as to why you…

>high-quality grading of high school English/History essays is not possible. I didn't mean to imply we could do it now, but somebody will eventually spends hundred of millions of dollars on this and we'll get there. Machine Learning is not what I mean when I say AI. We need AI's that actually understand text in the same way we do. All jobs will go to machines eventually.

> All jobs will go to machines eventually.

IMO this claim is mostly indistinguishable from claims like "God exists".

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#229

Post by anticsapp »

mysterydip wrote: post #176
kayhi wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you share the name and does it still exist?

If they made it in 2010, without updates, it's no longer on the App store. Apple takes down things that don't get updates.

What's the max time in updates allowed?

Re: Video Games Are the Future of Education

#230

Post by platz »

invalidOrTaken wrote: post #203
platz wrote: post #53

The language in this article about knowledge you "feel in your body" is only briefly mentioned is the concept of "tacit" knowledge, further developed here: Tacit knowledge is more important than deliberate practice https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23465862 The article rightly prizes tacit knowlege, but does not lay any argument for why games would give us tacit knowledge. Tacit knowledge is primarily gained only…

Games have certain advantages over real life in terms of providing experience: --- shorter feedback loops: you can play through a game of Civilization in a few hours/days. There is no analogous real-life experience. --- non-severe failure consequences: If you fail in Kerbal Space Program, there is no Challenger explosion --- repetition: Real life usually doesn't provide similar conditions to make for valid experiment…

> you can play through a game of Civilization in a few hours/days. There is no analogous real-life experience.

If it's not analogous to real-life experience, you haven't gained any tacit knowledge that useful for real life.

> If you fail in Kerbal Space Program, there is no Challenger explosion

If you're involved in launching Challenger, you don't (and wouldn't) learn how to do so by playing Kerbal Space Program.

> In the same way books transport us, and let us visit other places and situations, games can do the same.

Yes, just like music - but that is a different thing than gaining tacit knowledge that can be used in a real-life situation. Lets not confuse arts with professional development.

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