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Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

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Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#221

Post by beager »

at_a_remove wrote: post #35

I wonder if we'll hear the "they're a private company, they can do what they want, it is only censorship if the government does it" routine. I remember about a decade ago when certain parties were so concerned with voices being silenced and "erasure." The same people are now cheering when Facebook, Twitter, and the like shut down certain kinds of speech, with great discretion as to how the "rules" are implemented. Th…

I have to be internally consistent and agree that it's at Zoom's discretion as a private-sector company whether to host specific content or provide services to specific people and viewpoints, just as it is for Facebook/Twitter etc.

Two things are additional considerations that may change how this sort of action ends up for Zoom:

1. Zoom will be judged in the court of public opinion for their decision to align their moderation of access to their service with the CCP. This is likely a different degree of backlash than you'd see with, say, shutting down the accounts of US-based hate groups.

2. Zoom may come under scrutiny—without concrete evidence—for introspecting the content of communications through its platform that would otherwise be presumed to be private. This is different from Facebook/Twitter etc., for which much of the content that drives moderation decisions is public.

Zoom is not abridging anyone's constitutional right to free speech, nor would they be able to. How they are judged for their specific actions, though, is entirely at the discretion of their user base and public opinion.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#222

Post by gonehome »

deathgrips wrote: post #214
gonehome wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are advantages to the efficiency of authoritarian power, but how do they handle peaceful transition of power? How do they handle abuse? A lot of democratic stability comes from it being hard to change things quickly, separation of power, and the existence of a lot free speech so it's hard to cover things up. Ultimately, with a dependence on the people. I could be persuaded that there are better ways to structur…

>There are advantages to the efficiency of authoritarian power, but how do they handle peaceful transition of power? Europe had hereditary transitions of power, which were about as peaceful as any other form of transition of power. In Rome you would choose your successor and he would be the next emperor. > I probably could not be persuaded that limits on speech and government censorship are good long-term for the hea…

> "Do you think Americans are using free speech well? Do you feel like the government is accountable to you?"

Yes.

> "In America you have free speech but it's not practically useful for anything. Have a go at trying to stop some government abuse of power."

The protests happening now, civil rights movements in the 60s, the changes after the pentagon papers, the suffrage movement. "Me Too" and its impact on culture, awareness of the continuous lies coming from the current administration. There are an enormous amount of historical examples of free speech being critical to improving the society.

I think you're very wrong, but you're free to be wrong (at least on this website).

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#223

Post by easytiger »

mushufasa wrote: post #121
nvahalik wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoom is a company I have loved so far, but a lot of this is starting to really rub me the wrong way and I really don't want to have to go find another solution. However, without some sort of reversal, this is enough for me to deal with the mess of doing that.

I've tried Google Meet, Jitsi, and some other things, but Zoom is the only service that my 6+ year old laptop can handle for more than 5 min without nosediving into 100% CPU usage and freezing up. Does anyone have other suggestions? Either for other services or for troubleshooting Jitsi?

There is a bug in meet where it suddenly decides to burn CPU like crazy. Can work fine for hours then fail

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#224

Post by throwaway8879 »

koheripbal wrote: post #167
deathgrips wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not considering the real and terrifying strengths that dictatorship has over democracy. In true democracies the politicians never undertake a plan that lasts longer than one election term because they have no incentive to do so. In China they feel free to undertake 20 year plans with large upfront investments because the party does not care about winning an election every 2-4 years. Why do you automatically as…

This is why a successful democracy is one where only well educated and thoughtful people vote. Making it easier and easier to vote is a losing formula.

How are you defining a successful democracy? If 20% of a nation elect a philosopher king type leader, is that more "successful" than 90% of another nation electing a tyrannical despot?

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#225

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

nvahalik wrote: post #51
ciarannolan wrote: post #8

I feel like the good faith presumption for this company has to have shifted by now. Is there any reason not to assume that the Chinese government is surveilling Zoom calls en masse? Documenting participants (face, voice, language, location, etc.), recording content, etc. We're talking about the data of 200M+ users. I see people on HN defending Zoom all the time. >The company has acknowledged that much of its product…

Zoom is a company I have loved so far, but a lot of this is starting to really rub me the wrong way and I really don't want to have to go find another solution. However, without some sort of reversal, this is enough for me to deal with the mess of doing that.

I will say Google Meet has gotten much better since the pandemic started, e.g. support for many more participants in its grid view.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#226

Post by Hnrobert42 »

nvahalik wrote: post #51
ciarannolan wrote: post #8

I feel like the good faith presumption for this company has to have shifted by now. Is there any reason not to assume that the Chinese government is surveilling Zoom calls en masse? Documenting participants (face, voice, language, location, etc.), recording content, etc. We're talking about the data of 200M+ users. I see people on HN defending Zoom all the time. >The company has acknowledged that much of its product…

Zoom is a company I have loved so far, but a lot of this is starting to really rub me the wrong way and I really don't want to have to go find another solution. However, without some sort of reversal, this is enough for me to deal with the mess of doing that.

After evaluating a number of solutions, we chose uberconference (no relation to uber). I really like it, especially that the conference is just a phone number.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#227

Post by toyg »

chrisseaton wrote: post #173
ciarannolan wrote: post #8

I feel like the good faith presumption for this company has to have shifted by now. Is there any reason not to assume that the Chinese government is surveilling Zoom calls en masse? Documenting participants (face, voice, language, location, etc.), recording content, etc. We're talking about the data of 200M+ users. I see people on HN defending Zoom all the time. >The company has acknowledged that much of its product…

> Is there any reason not to assume that the Chinese government is surveilling Zoom calls en masse? Always assume your calls on the public internet are being surveilled by all parties, no matter which service you're using. But beside that... if they were surveilling them... why would they close them? Why would you shut down your intelligence source?

Some comms you want to monitor, some you want to disrupt... And Chinese authorities like big gestures, sending messages, "we know who you are and what you do, we can get you anytime, you are not safe anywhere".

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#228

Post by kdamica »

thePunisher wrote: post #140
kdamica wrote: post #39

I remember the good old days when we all thought that tech would help export democracy and free speech...

That's why I keep calling for a NEW Internet to be created based on HORNET technology. HORNET is basically the same as the Tor network, but with speeds similar to the current internet. Sites can't be traced or blocked and neither can its users. There will be free speech, along with all its excesses (terrorism, child porn, illegal content sharing etc.). If everyone migrates towards the HORNET internet authoritarian re…

https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1000/1*crxdmz7o9297jz0L1...

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#229

Post by deathgrips »

gonehome wrote: post #222
deathgrips wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are advantages to the efficiency of authoritarian power, but how do they handle peaceful transition of power? Europe had hereditary transitions of power, which were about as peaceful as any other form of transition of power. In Rome you would choose your successor and he would be the next emperor. > I probably could not be persuaded that limits on speech and government censorship are good long-term for the hea…

> "Do you think Americans are using free speech well? Do you feel like the government is accountable to you?" Yes. > "In America you have free speech but it's not practically useful for anything. Have a go at trying to stop some government abuse of power." The protests happening now, civil rights movements in the 60s, the changes after the pentagon papers, the suffrage movement. "Me Too" and its impact on culture, aw…

>The protests happening now

Do you think the police will stop their violence? When is the last time that people got politicians to do something they didn't want to do already?

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#230

Post by wonnage »

crazygringo wrote: post #107

I'd just like to see more evidence and information before making judgment here. There's no response from Zoom whatsoever, which is odd. Could this have been other users maliciously reporting the account as abuse, and it was closed automatically? Or something else similar? Or if China is putting pressure on Zoom, then how exactly? If Zoom, an American company, really did intentionally close the account of someone livi…

It looks like the account was reinstated: https://twitter.com/ZhouFengSuo/status/1270828746589769732?s...

My guess is that they were under pressure to close all the accounts in the meeting, backpedaled after the article, and reenabled the non-Chinese ones. Honestly, if they just did this to begin with, it'd be understandable? They just fucked up and blocked the non-China accounts too, triggering the China Watchers of which this reporter is a prime member of.

I ultimately see companies adopting the TikTok model, where Chinese users basically get their own sandboxed app and company structure subject to Chinese law that nobody else can communicate with.

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