Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow • Hacker News Board

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#221

Post by devado » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

Lx1oG-AWb6h_ZG0 wrote: post #202

Lx1oG-AWb6h_ZG0 wrote: post #77

What is their end goal here? I certainly don’t want Mark Zuckerberg or any of his employees making decisions on what is considered newsworthy, especially on really important stuff like this. Even if you don’t personally like what is being said, the fact that it _is_ being said - and who is saying it - is an important point for people to know. The next time, it may be your own opinions that they’ll censor: Facebook ha…

Just to drive the point home, what would have happened if a facebook moderator had decided to remove the initial video of Floyd's murder because, hey, the official reports said he was doing something wrong and the video had the potential to incite violence? I'm fairly sure we would not be having the discussion we're having today, and we would have lost the opportunity to improve our democracy.

Exactly. FB is just a platform and should not be a publisher/curator. Otherwise, it must be made responsibly for every post on it's platform.

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#222

Post by devado » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #193

jimmydorry wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook should provide the platform and stop there. When they act as publishers and start editorialising or adding "platform opinions" to the user generated content, they can rightly be asked why they endorse everything else on their site that isn't "edited" or "added to". We need to think real hard about what we want in 5 years and beyond from now... not just what we want now. Breaching the divide of platform and p…

Nice idealism. But human beings have trouble managing that kind of platform. Every idiot's lies look just as legitimate as expert opinion. Other idiots can search for confirmation of their biases and find any number of hits that way. Call it what you like; we're not coping very well with unrestricted dissemination of disinformation. Folks have gamed it at the highest levels.

Aren't zuck and his company made of humans? What magic powers do they have to suddenly curate things accurately and deem the destiny of mankind? I have trouble following what you are trying to say. Maybe you are asking for all social media to be shutdown altogether.

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#223

Post by ipsum2 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 9:47 PM UTC

propelol wrote: post #185

ipsum2 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Social media is a dead end. The results are depression and misinformation. Honest question. Is Reddit any different? Hacker News? Your average bulletin board?

Reddit is better because people are more anonymous and don't have to mix their real life with their online life.

Why? Misinformation on Facebook and Twitter are spread by bots AFAIK. How does being anonymous help decrease misinformation?

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#224

Post by GaryNumanVevo » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 10:22 PM UTC

A strike would be more effective in my opinion. Organize and take the site down. Keep it down for a few hours. That's easily a few hundred million in lost profits.

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#225

Post by skinnymuch » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 11:00 PM UTC

baskire wrote: post #6

ditonal wrote: post #3

Walkouts will achieve nothing, but the tragic part of the story is Silicon Valley engineers are sitting on a massive amount of power to affect real change IF they collectively organize, which they have various irrational hang ups about doing. Zuckerberg does not care if 50% of his engineers skip a video meeting. He would greatly care if he found out 50%+ of his SREs were going on strike. But the word union is stigmat…

Some of us have been in unionized industries prior. It also lead to promotion based on years served. Pay scales. And the protection of low performers. Right now engineers have incredible leverage. What do they gain by a union. Don’t like what Facebook is doing. Quit and work elsewhere. There’s plenty of jobs available

The main thing I’ve been told consistently is foot in the door is the biggest thing. Once you’re in as long as you really did pass the interview and are at least okay, beyond that, chances of you being fired have to be low because no one ever brings that up. I’ve asked around. No one thinks that is even a possibility in normal circumstances.

I don’t think any companies do stack ranking any more in terms of firing. Layoffs are the only times you’d have to worry. And that comes down to politics as well no matter what.

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#226

Post by renewiltord » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 1:16 AM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #14

baskire wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us have been in unionized industries prior. It also lead to promotion based on years served. Pay scales. And the protection of low performers. Right now engineers have incredible leverage. What do they gain by a union. Don’t like what Facebook is doing. Quit and work elsewhere. There’s plenty of jobs available

> Right now engineers have incredible leverage. If the engineers’ leverage is so great, why have they been unable to enact policies they support?

Have they not? Certainly, life as an engineer is exactly as I desire it to be most places I go.

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#227

Post by renewiltord » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 1:18 AM UTC

bildung wrote: post #178

logicchains wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a very good argument in this case because the average Silicon Valley tech worker has a better take home salary than a programmer in those countries even after accounting for education/childcare and insurance costs.

Take home pay certainly isn't the metric that is improved here, but rather pay per hour. How many hours per year does a Silicon Valley tech worker work? Absolute pay e.g. in Germany is significantly less, but then the absolute hours worked in a full time job are probably 800 hours less per year than in Silicon Valley: 6 weeks of paid holiday are standard in tech here, plus e.g. 2 weeks paid sick leave because of the…

For the better part of a decade I have worked in SF at startups. You know what I say when I'm sick? "Hey, guys, I'm sick. I'm going to sleep it off." No doctor's note, no accou

This has never not been the case. Number of unions? 0.

Some of my co-workers from my previous employer are currently still on classes paid for by that previous employer.

Levels.fyi has median German comp at $95k (net $61k), median SF comp at $236k (net $151k). We'll just use your numbers for the time spent:

Berlin: 52 - 6 - 2 - 4 = 40 weeks = 40 * 5 * 8 hours. Net hourly wage = $38/hr

SF: We will assume they work full 52 weeks, and they work 10 hours a day, and every day of the week = 52 * 7 * 10 hours. Net hourly wage = $41/hr

Okay, so if they never take a day off and they work 10 hours every day they still make more. Now that's being generous to your claim.

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#228

Post by foolfoolz » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 1:40 AM UTC

blaser-waffle wrote: post #198

foolfoolz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this explains everything. you can stage a walk out in a meeting but you’re still on zuckerbergs payroll. and if 50% of the us based engineers quit based on some social principles there’s thousands of engineers ready to fill those spots around the world for a fraction of the price. covid has shown remote work works. unionizing and making the US more costly to work with will only accelerate how “remote” these jobs can…

The FAANGM types aren't hiring mediocre programmers out of Uzbekistan, they're looking for MIT/Carnegie Mellon/Stanford types. Plenty of primo talent coming out of Texas A&M, Virginia Tech, etc. as well. Plenty of bodies to replace those who leave, for sure, but they're not about to start hiring random offshore types.

this description of target candidates does not match what i have seen. i’m not implying random or mediocre. it’s purely bay area hubris to assume no one else in the world except some top university graduates can learn our crud microservice development skills or put together some components

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#229

Post by Apocryphon » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 2:09 AM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #227

bildung wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take home pay certainly isn't the metric that is improved here, but rather pay per hour. How many hours per year does a Silicon Valley tech worker work? Absolute pay e.g. in Germany is significantly less, but then the absolute hours worked in a full time job are probably 800 hours less per year than in Silicon Valley: 6 weeks of paid holiday are standard in tech here, plus e.g. 2 weeks paid sick leave because of the…

For the better part of a decade I have worked in SF at startups. You know what I say when I'm sick? "Hey, guys, I'm sick. I'm going to sleep it off." No doctor's note, no accou This has never not been the case. Number of unions? 0. Some of my co-workers from my previous employer are currently still on classes paid for by that previous employer. Levels.fyi has median German comp at $95k (net $61k), median SF comp at $…

And you expect this will continue indefinitely? Especially if the economy slips into a recession?

Re: Hundreds of Facebook employees walk out as Zuckerberg plans town hall tomorrow

#230

Post by renewiltord » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 2:34 AM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #229

renewiltord wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the better part of a decade I have worked in SF at startups. You know what I say when I'm sick? "Hey, guys, I'm sick. I'm going to sleep it off." No doctor's note, no accou This has never not been the case. Number of unions? 0. Some of my co-workers from my previous employer are currently still on classes paid for by that previous employer. Levels.fyi has median German comp at $95k (net $61k), median SF comp at $…

And you expect this will continue indefinitely? Especially if the economy slips into a recession?

I expect nothing except of myself that I am adaptable to uncertain circumstances. Certainly collective bargaining will allow me to extract a greater portion of the value should things go poorly for everyone. I think a union would be a useful tool to ensure that, say, the needs of the majority of participants are met as things fall apart. But that's for the majority, which given the ability will rent-seek over their sole control of employment by harming the minority: new participants, immigrants, those with relatively little power through ethnic/cultural/historical accident.

Of course, one could attempt to construct an organization that doesn't have these flaws, but I suspect the greater part of possible participants desire these things I call flaws. So, given institutional oppression vs. the natural oppression of the markets? I choose the natural oppression. We will both swim in the stormy ocean and luck and strength and perseverance will choose one of us. So be it.