Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 430 posts

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#221

Post by dsfyu404ed »

arnvald wrote: post #203
kajumix wrote: post #35

"I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness... But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices —…

I can't find the numbers right now, maybe someone else has them, but if I remember correctly, 2 examples - interracial marriage in late 1960s and same-sex marriage in 2010s - show that support for these kind of relationships grew much faster after they were made legal in all states in US. So I partially agree with you - there must be a certain culture change happening, but it can and it should be supported by law in…

>show that support for these kind of relationships grew much faster after they were made legal in all states in US.

Because the people who were on the "no" side of things weren't really affected by it (because the were never going to do those things anyway) and the sky didn't fall when other people did. You see this same thing happen every time a state loosens its abortion, gun, alcohol, drug, etc, laws. People say the sky is gonna fall and then it doesn't.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#222

Post by amoorthy »

Some amazing comments on this thread. Thank you!

If you're looking to take an actionable step to help with racial injustice consider supporting the Equal Justice Initiative. (eji.org). Inspiring org and a leader we would all be proud to support. I donated and my grad school class is pooling in together to do the same.

I'm also talking to my children about the role they can play in quelling racism when they see it. I need to do better myself. Change starts with us.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#223

Post by mistermann »

sokoloff wrote: post #87
systemvoltage wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big problem is that the elected after being elected, choose to not follow or dilute those promises. There is no accountability. So time and again, democracy fails as they just change their minds after being elected. There is this "damping" factor like a mechanical system, that takes the energy out of the people's hands and dampens it with lobbying, dishonesty, unaccountability and complete neglect for public inte…

I’m not sure it’s quite so simple as “they change their mind”. In a republic where deal-making has to happen, if you ran on W, X, Y, and Z, you might have to compromise on Z to get W, X, and a watered-down version of Y. Doesn’t mean you changed your mind on Z or strict-Y, but you can’t get everything you want because other Americans want other things and they can’t get everything they want either. Maybe a lesser poli…

> In a republic where deal-making has to happen, if you ran on W, X, Y, and Z, you might have to compromise on Z to get W, X, and a watered-down version of Y. Doesn’t mean you changed your mind on Z or strict-Y, but you can’t get everything you want because other Americans want other things and they can’t get everything they want either. Maybe a lesser politician would only have gotten W and half of X

If I owned a company and the people I hired to manage it were playing games like this, and if I asked them for insight into what, specifically, is happening behind the scenes, and they told me "it is literally not possible for us to provide you with that information" (and wouldn't say why it is not possible), I would be immediately launching a side project with the intent to replace the whole lot of them.

Yes, I realize "it's complex", but complexity is a continuum, not a binary.

With respect to the article, is it not true that the President has some substantial ability to float ideas into the public consciousness, that would put the heat on the state and municipal politicians to come up with some better systems to manage law enforcement and officer interactions with the public? And if the federal level truly has no power whatsoever in instituting reform or enforcing federal laws (what's the FBI do again?), I don't see why a comprehensive framework with recommendations for operational reform and greater transparency couldn't come from the top down. If there's nothing to be held accountable to, and no one to do the holding, I don't see why people are surprised when law enforcement restraint is largely left up to the goodwill of individual officers.

This whole situation and the way it is discussed seems rather absurd to me, but maybe there's something I'm not seeing.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#224

Post by TomBombadildoze »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #151
vzidex wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>do not believe that it actually exists on the moment Precisely. People have been voting and non-violently protesting for decades, and it hasn't worked.

People haven't been voting, which is why it hasn't worked.

Many of the people for whom the system "hasn't worked" have only had the statute right to vote for a generation, yet still face de facto barriers to exercise their right. For them, the system has never worked.

You keep spouting bullshit absolutes but don't seem to realize (or you're just unwilling to accept) that there are effectively two systems; a more of less functioning system for people like you, and one in name only for the disenfranchised.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#225

Post by kelvin0 »

Now I know this is old news, but it's not unheard of that law enforcement finds ways to infiltrate protests and make them turn into something else than a peaceful affair, even in tame ol' Canada.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/quebec-police-admit-they-went...

https://www.ctvnews.ca/quebec-police-defend-officers-actions...

So instead of condemning the few who 'incite violence', it might be useful to ponder if the game isn't rigged and external malicious actors could be acting as agent provocateurs.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#226

Post by Consultant32452 »

makomk wrote: post #220
Consultant32452 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst part is not going to be the brutality that is coming when police/military put a stop to this. That will be horrific, but temporary. Six months from now, is the average white American small business owner going to be more or less likely to hire a black person? That's the fucked up shit that is going to last another decade. That's the stuff that maintains generational poverty. And there's a thousand other sub…

As far as I can tell, the people burning everything down aren't even particularly likely to be black, efforts to spin this as some kind of necessary fight back against racism by people who've been suffering not withstanding. The folks cheering it on and advocating for this to their audiences definitely aren't - they're largely white, middle-class techies and journos and other well-off educated folks who aren't worrie…

I agree with you that it seems the people sparking the looting/fires/etc seem to be mostly white. I just don't think that will matter in the minds of the average person who barely watches the news. To the extent that they are watching anything, they will see tons of videos of black people committing crimes on social media.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#227

Post by Avicebron »

gotoeleven wrote: post #186
hkai wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that level of disillusionment is a bit dangerous, because I've seen people starting to support the Chinese way of governance because they say the American one is broken.

Haha how delusional do you have to be to think the US is worse than a communist kleptocracy that dabbles in death camps?

Because we also have a kletptocracy where the government is designed to serve the wealthy, it's not about being worse by any margin, it's about pointing out what needs to change.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#228

Post by caterama »

eanzenberg wrote: post #132
vzidex wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>do not believe that it actually exists on the moment Precisely. People have been voting and non-violently protesting for decades, and it hasn't worked.

How has it not worked?

Remind me again... how do we elect presidents that don't win the popular vote?

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#229

Post by throwaway0a5e »

twic wrote: post #135
ImprobableTruth wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm generally on board with everything you've said, but >like to see most beat cops completely disarmed seems absolutely crazy to me as long as the general public has such easy access to guns.

The British model - and i know we have a much lower level of gun ownership than the US, but hear me out! - is to have bobbies on the beat not be armed, but to have rapid response units available which are very heavily armed indeed [1] [2]. So, if police on the street encounter an armed criminal, they fall back, radio for support, and wait for a group of colleagues with assault rifles, sub-machine guns, and proper tra…

That could work in Massachusetts, Maryland or some other states with very low firearms ownership rates. I don't think it's fair to ask police to go out and police without at least letting them have (at their discretion) the same level of armament as the local law abiding citizens and holding them to the same standards when they do use force. Allowing a civilian police force to have things the local civilians can't have doesn't make sense IMO.

What cops really need is more training to not shoot first and ask questions later. 18yo marines manning checkpoints in the middle east are expected to more or less hold their fire until they come under fire. Domestic police should be held to similiar standards.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#230

Post by nradov »

lliamander wrote: post #145
nradov wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't condone violence, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that modern American democracy was built on the foundation of political violence. It worked for us.

The violence of the American Revolution was targeted at the government institutions and military that directly threatened them. These riots are targeted at innocent civilians. Destroying peoples livelihoods, setting fire to residences with people still inside (including children), etc. I would not be so quick to draw such a comparison.

American revolutionaries targeted loyalist civilians for violence and property destruction. Let's not ignore the ugly parts of our national history. In some cases it was literally terrorism, at least by the modern definition.

https://www.ushistory.org/US/13c.asp

Post reply on HN