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University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

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Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#221

Post by poohblahoyamo »

rvp-x wrote: post #162
zajio1am wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here the common strategy for STEM degree programmes is to admit most people and then make first year hard enough that e.g. 2/3 of students are eliminated. In some sense it is more fair than strict admission criteria.

I can see a future cynical me talking about how brutal it is to lure poor students and have them take loans to pay first year tuition only to kick them out a year later with nothing to show for it, if they're not the top 1/3 for some reason.

Oh oh. Those are called Caribbean medical schools.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#222

Post by remarkEon »

charlesju wrote: post #116
remarkEon wrote: post #33

That sound you hear is panicked elites, rushing to the "side door" of the UC system in an attempt to figure out how best to influence their kid's probability of admission since paying a few grand for prep sessions (for piece of mind, mostly) on what's a pretty darn good measure of academic aptitude is a waste of everyone's time, now that the test is rendered meaningless ... until California develops their own. I'm su…

I think you're underestimating how much of the inequality has been baked in by Junior year of High School. 16 years of living a life where parents and teachers nurture the students for maximum growth is going to be easily reflected in any way you want to measure aptitude against someone that grew up in a rough environment. From the article it seems like the UC are going to develop their own test, that will further di…

Seems totally unrelated, unless you believe that academic aptitude is 100% environmental.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#223

Post by azinman2 »

vimax wrote: post #144

Everyone is focused on this being a means of controlling the selection process, but just look at the money. CollegeBoard had a 2017 revenue of $1.07bn with an astonishing $928m in expenses. If the new UCSAT displaces the SAT, UC gets to add an extra $100m to profits and $XXX million in 'expenses' to get lost in the UC System. And they get more control over the selection process.

You're assuming they'd charge for the test. Is that documented somewhere? I don't see that in the article.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#224

Post by dehrmann »

bsder wrote: post #167
cameldrv wrote: post #56

This is very unfortunate. Yes, you can improve your SAT score by studying somewhat, but not massively. The College board has made a free online prep course with Kahn academy that achieves similar results to professional coaching if the student puts in the time. The fact that a student is willing to put in that time should be an indicator that they're likely to be successful in college. Where more of the abuse is is i…

> Yes, you can improve your SAT score by studying somewhat, but not massively. This is completely mistaken. Just taking a couple sample exams will net you almost 100 points as you don't waste time figuring out how to take the test . Simple prep will net you 200+ points right off the top. For example, generating a correct answer is almost always way slower on these kinds of tests than quickly removing wrong answers. K…

> Just taking a couple sample exams will net you almost 100 points as you don't waste time figuring out how to take the test.

You don't go in cold for the SAT. They give you enough free practice resources that anyone serious about taking the test should get those 100 points. Maybe to a practice test every weekend for a month leading up to the test. It's the tutoring where you have to invest a lot more time and money for more marginal gains.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#225

Post by BurningFrog »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #180
bananabreakfast wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European entrance exams, including Finland's, are far, far worse than the SAT. They are much more serious and shape one's life far more and enforce systemic bias to much higher extreme.

I don't have direct experience but I think the whole system in Europe is designed to irrevocably pigeon hole students very early in the game. If I remember California State Colleges have a bunch of placement tests to gauge what level of classes to put beginning students in. I think I'd be happier with a system that throws a net wide and than deals with the result on an as needed basis. Than a hyper meritocratic syste…

> the whole system in Europe

Pet peeve: There is no European system. At least every country has their own unique system.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#226

Post by azinman2 »

spekcular wrote: post #83
nimbius wrote: post #57

Ibram X Kendi has an excellent book, "Stamped from the Beginning" that does a great job of explaining how SAT and ACT tests were really only ever meaningful as a barrier to class mobility for blacks in the United states. in the 21st century it does the same thing. By keeping test prep out of public school and forcing takers to invest up to a thousand dollars on a classroom instruction for the test (which often promis…

I'm not sure this take comports with the facts. Test prep materials are readily available at most public libraries, and even professional prep courses produce marginal gains (smaller than the test-retest measurement error). The claim that rich white people are leveraging their wealth to buy a secret "one weird trick" that instantly boosts their scores is simply false. I am happy to provide citations if you're interes…

Personally, I gained about 200 points after having a tutor for SATs in high school. I don't know that I would have studied as well/hard without it.

For me, the SATs/SAT IIs didn't test what was a meaningful way to assess my strengths in the first place: analytic reasoning & creativity. That only partially came across in my extra ciriculars since primary education is largely memorization without understanding.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#227

Post by collegeburner »

seibelj wrote: post #7

Another strike against genuine education. Now prep schools that have 17 valedictorians will help their students pad their applications with nonsense extra-curricular activities and experiences. However it's likely much easier to create the same pastiche of fluff in poorly-performing schools than it is to actually raise test scores. Now more than ever, college signals nothing other than the ability to follow rules and…

> 17 valedictorians

You think that's bad? I know some kids at a public school in a rich neighborhood that had almost fifty valedictorians.

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#228

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

tankerdude wrote: post #146
jwilber wrote: post #128

UC Berkeley alumni here. Don’t know that this is a good thing. Currently, the UC’s provide a lot of weight to holistic applications. These often favor privileged kids, as they have access to far more opportunities than others. For some, the SAT provided a sort of leveling field in that regard. Still, it wasn’t perfect, but I fail to see how what they come up with will fix the issue. Of interest is that all of this is…

Yes, but wealthy or not, the UCs limit the number of kits from high achieving schools, usually to around 50 for UCLA and UCB, as examples. They then accept a certain number for every lower achieving school, due to the 10% requirement (is it still 10% these days?). People then game the system, with the wealthy, moving to a poorly performing school, and the child will be ranked very high in their school, so it is easy…

>I will also disagree that the SAT is a leveling field. The reason is that in the high achieving schools, the child is sent to private tutors and classes every single year of their lives starting in elementary school. The parents will spend $1k+/month on activities as well as academic classes. That type of knowledge seriously adds up.

This sentiment is littered throughout the comments here. Do we want colleges to admit the brightest, most academically ready 18 year olds? Or to simply admit equal percentages matching race and income levels?

You even seem to admit the student would be better off with those extra classes.

>That type of knowledge seriously adds up.

Personally I'd have no problem with someone smarter than me getting into a college over me... It's not as if you can pay a tutor and then go to bed while they do the work for you, you still have to put in time...

Re: University of California Will Stop Using SAT, ACT

#230

Post by fma »

awillen wrote: post #44
hpoe wrote: post #3

I know some people protest measures that are considered more "objective" over measures that are more "holistic", whether this is in school admittance, performance evaluation, promotion consideration, interviewing, determining welfare benefits, choosing who makes the rules and governs. However it has been my experience that whenever an explicit test or hierarchy is removed another shadow one builds up that is more sub…

Yeah, I agree with this 100% - these students are going to be compared to each other somehow, and it's always going to be imperfect and favor those who are better off. Still, these tests are at least relatively objective, and if you remove them the kids will be compared with less objective measures that allow for more bias to be introduced. The SAT/ACT are the worst form of college admission criteria very much in the…

The devil you know is better than the devil you dont.

SAT and ACT has been around for so long, I think college admissions can account for deviations to a certain extent.

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