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Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

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221–230 of 509 posts

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't for "first responders" to be paying for masks out of their own pockets, it's for the healthcare system (i.e. ultimately insurance companies) to pay higher prices so that more masks are made available to first responders, either by stimulating new production or reallocating existing masks. If you just start confiscating them then anyone who did something we very much would like them to have done right…

> The point isn't for "first responders" to be paying for masks out of their own pockets, it's for the healthcare system (i.e. ultimately insurance companies) to pay higher prices so that more masks are made available to first responders, either by stimulating new production or reallocating existing masks. Yeah, that's grotesque. Everyone who works on the front lines of providing care to COVID patients is a first res…

> Everyone who works on the front lines of providing care to COVID patients is a first responder, and whether they or their employers pay, is irrelevant.

I bet it's relevant to them.

> It is the moral imperative of leadership to do what it takes to resolve the situation now, and figure out the details later.

But what does that even mean? Suppose Donald Trump is suddenly made owner of all PPE. How is he qualified to allocate it efficiently? What does someone do who legitimately needs it but didn't make his list?

> Not to mention, I've always said we need more expensive health insurance in America.

You need more healthcare during a pandemic. It costs money. It has to come from somewhere.

> It could therefore create a national stockpile of gear first responders might need in a pandemic, and fill it at contracted prices.

And then go several years without a pandemic at which point the stockpile will either have rotted or been cut from the budget as "unnecessary" before the next one.

This is the type of problem where you want redundancies. The government can try to keep a stockpile and you still want private stockpiles in case they fail or are insufficient -- as has obviously happened. It's not like this is the first ever pandemic in the world that no one could have ever foreseen. What is going to cause them to do any better next time?

> As they have done with oil. And helium. And raisins.

The strategic petroleum reserve is some kind of a silly farce. Oil is a global commodity and the US is a major producer. The reserve exists entirely as a result of politics, it isn't really useful for much.

The "helium reserve" exists primarily because the government is a major producer of the stuff. Nearly all the helium on earth is a product of nuclear reactors.

And the "strategic raisin reserve" (insert eyeroll) was recently found unconstitutional.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it is going to deter someone who has none. Is it impossible for you to imagine someone who couldn't afford that premium so they resort to using the shower or something? And do you really think a millionaire is going to be deterred from buying too much in that instance?

Someone who couldn't afford $20 for something that lasts more than a month? If this person exists it's because they place a below-average value on toilet paper, not because they don't have $20. And there aren't enough millionaires for their toilet paper buying habits to have a meaningful effect on the market unless they each start buying millions of rolls, which is a ridiculous hypothetical with no chance of really h…

Rolls of TP don't last a month in most households. They normally last 1 to 2 days. You either own a bidet or need to see a doctor.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Try it like this. Federal minimum wage comes out to around $15,000/year. This is in the same ballpark as college tuition -- which is generally regarded as costing a lot of money. If you go to an institution where you're a novice and it takes half your hours to learn the trade and the other half is productive work for the employer, you would expect these two to net to approximately zero, right? So why is it at all u…

> Either that job is an internship (non-permanent and I already addressed it) or you will quickly become a fully productive worker (this is literally just training/ramp up and is not a significant cost to employers). You're asking for examples and then pigeonholing any possibilities into one box or the other. Some occupations take a long time to learn. Years. Particularly if it's effectively half training and half wo…

> Is that a sufficient example?

You say I'm pigeonholing you but you have yet to name a single occupation - what am I pigeonholing? Also, my "pigeonholing" is not arbitrary, it is the breadth of jobs that can exist with a minimum wage enacted...

No, it is not a sufficient example because you haven't said a word about what this person is doing. You can see how this feels like pulling teeth on my end, yes? I just want an actual concrete example of a job that could exist. If there are so many of these that there is a notable economic impact from this, it really isn't unreasonable to ask someone to name one, is it? I can't imagine what the job looks like that you described.

> But that's the whole problem, isn't it? When things are going well it's a seller's market and you don't need a minimum wage. When things are going poorly, the option isn't minimum wage job vs. less than minimum wage job, it's less than minimum wage job vs. unemployment. So then you're prohibiting bad and leaving them with really bad.

My argument is exactly that you need a minimum wage in a sellers market because the market is exceedingly inefficient for workers and allows companies to exploit workers and pass that profit off to already wealthy shareholders and upper management. For non-sellers markets the minimum should be adjusted to match economic times, I'm not saying we set a $25 minimum wage during a recession here. I'd be very happy to pin minimum wage to economic times.

> Can you not imagine that some jobs might pay less money but be more flexible or closer to home or less emotionally taxing and thereby preferable despite the lower pay?

If it is between a job that pays enough to survive vs one that does not? No I can't. Between two jobs that pay enough to survive? Absolutely.

> Even when a minimum wage does exactly what you want it to, the effect is to transfer money from the large institutions that can absorb the minimum wage increase to the minimum wage workers. But you can get exactly the same desired effect simply by changing their relative tax rates (using negative rates if necessary) without incurring any of the harm caused by constraining anyone's choice of employment.

I fully agree that would be a better policy. It has proved much harder to pass through the political system. I have said it in other threads here but I am 100% not saying a higher minimum wage is an ideal economic state, it is simply better than the current point we are at and the seemingly easiest to pass at the moment. In the end, the clear way to do this is through UBI IMO. And I think that is the root of a lot of these threads that I'm not going into responses on - this isn't a one and done policy change, you need others to match it like an increased social safety net to make that "really bad" unemployed scenario not as bad.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> high prices direct resources to more important uses I don't think that that is always true. High prices will redirect scarce resources to those who have the means and desire to pay for them. That doesn't necessarily mean that those uses are more important, regardless of how one defines what it means for the resource usage to be important.

It doesn't map to desire perfectly, but it does generally. If anyone truly needs a mask, (e.g. a delivery driver delivering packages to customers, a doctor, a nurse), that represents an economic need for whatever service they provide. Their employer will be able to charge a high price for their service, and afford to pay a high price for PPE for them. Even when the mapping is imperfect, the fact that the rich guy was…

>which promotes more productive behavior from society at large.

Greed is good is an ideology for the morally impaired with limited attention span. A relatively small differential in wealth and large differential in social standing is arguably enough to achieve maximum "productive" behavior after which diminishing returns are had.

As proof observe many European nations that are almost as productive wherein the wealth of most practitioners of most professions tops out much lower than their US counterparts and yet they produce similarly to our citizens.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#225
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A billionaire who wants to stockpile a million masks just in case definitely not "more important" than a million poor people getting 1 mask each. Real people don't behave like this. A billionaire can't make personal use of a million masks and there is no point in stockpiling them during a crisis just in case there is some future crisis. They're not going to be worth more a year from now than they are today because…

As is often the case, the problem is millions of millionaires instead of a handful of billionaires. There are 18.6 million millionaires in the US. If each of them bought 10 n95 masks just in case, or for themselves + family + friends, that's 186 million masks. They could easily pay $20 / mask (that's only $200 per millionaire), which would significantly push up the cost to hospitals of acquiring masks. Hospitals migh…

But then you're still expecting something implausible to happen, because everybody knows there is a shortage of masks and they're needed by healthcare workers, so the chances that 100% of millionaires will disregard that and buy masks they don't need is negligible.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#226
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A billionaire who wants to stockpile a million masks just in case definitely not "more important" than a million poor people getting 1 mask each. Real people don't behave like this. A billionaire can't make personal use of a million masks and there is no point in stockpiling them during a crisis just in case there is some future crisis. They're not going to be worth more a year from now than they are today because…

As is often the case, the problem is millions of millionaires instead of a handful of billionaires. There are 18.6 million millionaires in the US. If each of them bought 10 n95 masks just in case, or for themselves + family + friends, that's 186 million masks. They could easily pay $20 / mask (that's only $200 per millionaire), which would significantly push up the cost to hospitals of acquiring masks. Hospitals migh…

Except that has never happened.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#227
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mr. Mouse has a good take on this but there is a second perspective that is worth considering: If we set up a dog-eat-dog world where only money matters, why would a billionaire hoard unneeded masks? They know that they can just buy what they need when the need it. The only people with incentive to hoard are poor and vulnerable people because they know they won't be able to afford masks when they run out. Entrepreneu…

This assumes that people actually behave rationally. Do we have actual numbers on rich people buying TP during the present crisis? If most people including the rich are going to hoard anyway a rising price just transfers more money to sellers when many need it most. Worse it incentivizes people to buy for resale if the price is trending upward. TP selling for 200% that is headed to 400% shortly is a smarter buy than…

> This assumes that people actually behave rationally.

There isn't an alternative. If you assume people behave irrationally you may as well send the army in straight away. People are often stupid but rarely irrational given what they can understand. There is pretty solid evidence that people with money are the ones who spend it rationally.

And besides a private buyer's opinion of what is rational is just as valid as anyone else's.

> If I may suggest you and a minority of others would be better served in such a situation and you are trying to construct an argument so as to justify a policy that would benefit yourself.

Yes? I'd like to live in a world where I can go to the store and buy toilet paper. Just like everyone else. This is not an unreasonable demand.

I'd like to see everything go back to normal as fast as possible, thanks. Policies that make it irrational to return to that happy equilibrium are not in my interests. We need producers and companies involved in consumer logistics to change their behaviors. Money is the fastest tool to do that.

Besides, seriously, why do you think people earn money if not to get first dibs on stuff they want? What do you think money is for? It isn't like everyone is going to get what they want, there is a massive shortage. Someone is going to have to do without. If someone has to do without we use money to figure out who. That is how life works in this era, and the eras before dating back to the invention of money. Price controls aren't going to win a war with the economy. It is more likely to take down the government than stop wealthy people getting what they want.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#228

Speaking as an economist, I tend to get nervous when other economists talk about circumstances where "morality trumps economics." As a profession, we have a miserable track record on morality. Economists widely endorsed eugenics in the first half of the 20th century, for example. And many modern economists endorse a minimum wage, as eugenicists did then, but with even less regard for the harm it causes. Personally, I…

I agree; to latch onto your comment, the last time (AFAIK, my history is not great) the US made sweeping changes to its production was during WW2, where they changed the economy and shifted the workforce towards the war, producing weapons, ammo, etc.

On the one side it's a testament to the US' potential manufacturing prowess, on the other you have to wonder about the moral justification of it. If you take it out of context, of course, I mean they and the rest of the world were fighting some of the most morally objectionable forces at the time (the nazis and Japanese).

As an aside, the way things are heading now, the world will have to unite against the US. At least for now the US seems to keep to itself for the most part.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#229
post #15

It's very interesting to me that (nearly) everyone agrees that reselling disaster supplies like masks, hand sanitizer, etc. for a large profit is terrible, but somehow selling literal essentials like food, housing, and healthcare for profit is just fine.

The economy needs to have good sold at a profit. It seems to be the best way to ensure that people, as a group, make and sell the things that need to be made and sold, and in appropriate quantities. It's not perfect, as there are plenty of inefficiencies, but it's a very good model. There are a number of problems with price gouging. First, it isn't helpful, everyone already knows there's a shortage of critical suppli…

> The economy needs to have good sold at a profit

Not for things that do not need to make a profit. See: essentials like healthcare, housing, and basic food items.

Re: Economists who defend disaster profiteers are wrong

#230
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> markets have done a better job of feeding people than any centralized planning system has. I wish HN would take their ECON101 lesson and shove it. All functioning governments susbsidize local farmers. The US pays farmers to produce milk and corn, amongst other things. The extra milk is often stockpiled as 5 pound cheese bricks. I've seen them. There is no "free markets with only comparative advantage" for food. How…

A counterexample: After WWII in Poland, Moscow installed a communist government in Warsaw, which promptly started implementing communist policies. One of the biggest ones was collectivization of farming - taking pieces of land and joining them into massive, state-run farms. After around 10 years of this, the studies started showing that this collectivized farming is so much less efficient than private farming (which…

Every economy that has tried collective farming, from small to large, has never been able to achieve self-sufficiency in food.

The US economy around 1800 was the first economy in history to produce a consistent food surplus. You can see the results of this in the astonishing increase in the average height of Americans throughout the 19th century.

In the Great Depression, the government ordered the slaughter of millions of hogs in order to try and raise the price of pork.

https://livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe30s/crops_17.html

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