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On Resigning from Google

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Re: On Resigning from Google

#221

Post by chipotle_coyote »

koheripbal wrote: post #152
baddox wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider what happens if everyone who has a moral complaint about their employer immediately quits rather than staying around and attempting to chase the complaint up the management hierarchy and/or educate and organize other employees to voice the complaint. I think utilizing one's power as a worker and aligning other workers to increase workers' power is far from hypocritical. It's a great way (perhaps the only rel…

The problem is that as long as you remain an employee, you have a LEGAL obligation to act in the interests of the Corporation. That is the nature of Fiduciary Duty - something all employees are legally bound by. You may "voice your concerns" all you like, but while you're an employee, it is your duty to ACT in accordance with the directions you're given, and in the absence of explicit direction, in the interests of t…

At risk of being the "[Citations Needed] Guy," I don't think this is true. This sounds an awful lot like the canard that corporations have a legal duty to act in the interests of their shareholders, but there is no fact no such legal or even regulatory obligation for that. This misapprehension comes from a paper written by Milton Friedman in 1975 in which he argued corporations have a moral duty to maximize shareholder value and to prioritize that over all other concerns. While that argument has been widely accepted by corporations and often used as a rationale for their behavior, it's never been codified as an SEC regulation, let alone written into law. It's literally just Friedman's opinion, and one that's come under increasing challenge.

If you're an employee of a company you are contractually obligated to fulfill the terms of your contract, but there is no legal -- or if you prefer, LEGAL -- requirement for you to do so. You may be reprimanded or even fired for spending too much time on Hacker News at the office, but you are not breaking any law by doing so. More to the point in this case, you are absolutely not breaking any law by telling your employer that you don't agree with their decisions, or even by trying to organize fellow employees to put pressure on management to change their behavior. If your employer fires you because of your speaking out or organizing, in fact, the law may very well be on your side, not theirs.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#222

Post by Apocryphon »

downerending wrote: post #193
pcj-github wrote: post #122

My anecdotal observation is that Google is currently experiencing a (slight) brain drain... Many highly qualified and experienced engineers have recently left. I wonder how many 1x engineers it is going to take to maintain all that software when the 100x and 10x engineers are gone. Not a simple math problem.

It's a knife that cuts many ways. Personally I wouldn't take a position there in 2020. Not because of what they're working on--I'd be fine working for a defense contractor--but rather because I don't want to deal with ideological drama on a regular basis. Work is work. If I decide to save the world, I'll do it on my own time with my own earnings, and my employer will be none the wiser.

Google positioned themselves to be in the business of saving the world from the get-go:

https://www.google.org

Founded in October 2005.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#223

Post by Waterluvian »

baddox wrote: post #69
paxys wrote: post #26

Random thoughts: 1. I applaud the fact that they are actually quitting the company to voice their disapproval of these policies. In my mind all the "internal activism" happening at Google and others is massively hypocritical. One cannot publicly criticize a company while enjoying cushy paychecks fueled by those very activities they despise. 2. If they think Google is discriminatory towards LGBT employees and minoriti…

Consider what happens if everyone who has a moral complaint about their employer immediately quits rather than staying around and attempting to chase the complaint up the management hierarchy and/or educate and organize other employees to voice the complaint. I think utilizing one's power as a worker and aligning other workers to increase workers' power is far from hypocritical. It's a great way (perhaps the only rel…

"Lisa, maybe if I'm part of that mob, I can help steer it in wise directions."

Whenever Homer gives out advice the odds are its bad advice.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#224

Post by christiansakai »

Most people joining Google or FAANG is not for the brand. It is for the financial compensation.

If doesn’t pay almost double the market salary then majority of people won’t work for that company.

It is futile to ask people not to work for a FAANG company. The reality is, majority of people need (not just want) the money. People who already worked at FAANG long enough to enjoy the benefit of being financially good can afford to quit or don’t work for FAANG, or don’t work at all.

Can non FAANG tech companies follow suit in increasing the salary? I mean, keep your interview DS&A hard and make it harder if you need to avoid bad hire, but increase the compensation too. Otherwise you will keep seeing major brain drain every year.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#225

Post by postnihilism »

scardycat wrote: post #62
aaomidi wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiding behind "it's a business" isn't an argument acceptable to most people. Sure "it's a business" but does that give it a green card to act how it pleases? We're getting into the philosophy of what we want businesses to be in our society. More and more people are realizing that the inhumane structure a business operates in isn't acceptable to them, and would like to have a say in what they're doing. This person lef…

> Sure "it's a business" but does that give it a green card to act how it pleases? of course, yes! As long as it stays within the boundaries set by the law. Do you not act as you please? Do you not eat a $40 meal while a homeless person is lying outside in the cold? DO you not send your kid to a private school at $100k/year while the kid down the street (down the highway) struggles for school supplies? > So please, s…

> As long as it stays within the boundaries set by the law. > Stop trying to tell a large corporation to stop doing business and make profits, go change the society in which it operates.

This comment posits that companies act in a closed system. Companies don't just act within the boundaries set by the law, they actively seek to directly change laws by lobbying and to change the interpretation of laws through litigation in order to best suit their interests. They are political agents as are their workers.

It might bring more gray area into your life but like it or not what you do for your day job can have moral implications. You may have taken this post as a personal attack because you work at Google, which may be why you are so vociferously arguing against it. But even if one disagrees with where this person drew the line I think it behooves everybody to at least occasionally reflect on the ethical implications of how they spend their time, especially in tech where what you work on can easily affect millions or billions of people.

I'd hope this discussion would be more about the merit of where this line was drawn in this case rather than whether or not one is even justified in taking a moral stance instead of just putting their head down and shutting up or quitting.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#226

Post by lunias »

samsonradu wrote: post #179
lunias wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, labor is not that powerful anymore... especially when the company has the capital to replace you with 5 people tomorrow. I think the political power can only be regained by pooling your labor with your peers.

Like an union, it has been brought up in tech from time to time. https://mobile.twitter.com/codinghorror/status/1172279395035...

Yup, but one brought together by morals and ethics for the sake of morals and ethics. As Jeff points out, tech is not known for poor compensation or working environments. Tech is pervasive because convenience is a hot commodity. Technology disrupts, tech can make or break monopolies / monopsonies by changing the status quo. Having the ability to get another job on a whim doesn't matter much if you one day unintentionally end up serving the parent company that you resigned from; as big fish swallow small fish through acquisition etc.

I wish there was another way, but I can't really think of one that's within our control... Unions are certainly not above corruption either. I see Republicans / Democrats as two opposing unions; instead of making rational decisions on each issue independently everything gets encoded into a binary choice. Red or blue and all the good / bad that comes with either choice.

The real solution is smaller companies. Local businesses that you can simply stop using / move away from. That seems like a pipe dream though; it's more convenient to buy your internet from Comcast and support a monopoly than start your own ISP - even if you do and it gains traction, Comcast will come knocking and you'll take the money and retire.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#227

Post by dhdejejdhfyx »

baddox wrote: post #69
paxys wrote: post #26

Random thoughts: 1. I applaud the fact that they are actually quitting the company to voice their disapproval of these policies. In my mind all the "internal activism" happening at Google and others is massively hypocritical. One cannot publicly criticize a company while enjoying cushy paychecks fueled by those very activities they despise. 2. If they think Google is discriminatory towards LGBT employees and minoriti…

Consider what happens if everyone who has a moral complaint about their employer immediately quits rather than staying around and attempting to chase the complaint up the management hierarchy and/or educate and organize other employees to voice the complaint. I think utilizing one's power as a worker and aligning other workers to increase workers' power is far from hypocritical. It's a great way (perhaps the only rel…

>I think utilizing one's power as a worker and aligning other workers to increase workers' power ...

This sounds terrible. You're not increasing worker power as a whole you're just increasing the power of workers with similar political agendas. If successful, the unaligned workers don't even get the material benefit of a raise or added employee benefits like they would from a real union. The unaligned are basically just expected to roll with whatever mayhem the preachy workers cause.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#228

Post by Proven »

baddox wrote: post #69
paxys wrote: post #26

Random thoughts: 1. I applaud the fact that they are actually quitting the company to voice their disapproval of these policies. In my mind all the "internal activism" happening at Google and others is massively hypocritical. One cannot publicly criticize a company while enjoying cushy paychecks fueled by those very activities they despise. 2. If they think Google is discriminatory towards LGBT employees and minoriti…

Consider what happens if everyone who has a moral complaint about their employer immediately quits rather than staying around and attempting to chase the complaint up the management hierarchy and/or educate and organize other employees to voice the complaint. I think utilizing one's power as a worker and aligning other workers to increase workers' power is far from hypocritical. It's a great way (perhaps the only rel…

That is completely wrong.

The only natural right you have to keep them honest is to utilize your power as a customer or consumer.

As a worker you have the duty to do what you're told, and if you do, you get your wage. It's a quid pro quo, nobody owes you more than you deliver.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#229

Post by agumonkey »

paxys wrote: post #26

Random thoughts: 1. I applaud the fact that they are actually quitting the company to voice their disapproval of these policies. In my mind all the "internal activism" happening at Google and others is massively hypocritical. One cannot publicly criticize a company while enjoying cushy paychecks fueled by those very activities they despise. 2. If they think Google is discriminatory towards LGBT employees and minoriti…

1. seconded

leaving a job early is already tough, leaving a big profile name over politics even more so

2. didn't their datacenter carbon neutral though ? or is this Apple ?

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