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Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

bbc.com

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Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#221

Post by tomatocracy »

kgwgk wrote: post #130
gopalv wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But will they force Dads to take it? Nobody forces the moms either (though I do understand that dads don't breast-feed every 3 hours without sleep). The point is that this means the "she will be off for X months" becomes less of a biological parts thing against women and more of a life-stage thing. Though the ageism might still strike here, as people plan to have kids later in their lives. > Happy to dote when they…

> Nobody forces the moms either In some European countries women are not allowed to work in the following 6 or 8 weeks after giving birth (maybe even longer somewhere?).

In the UK the mother is required to take minimum 2 weeks off work (4 weeks for factory workers) and employers commit a criminal offence if they 'allow' the mother to work during this period (ie it's stricter than simply banning employers from asking).

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#222

Post by throwaway55554 »

sokoloff wrote: post #151
the_af wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is s…

> mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is some sort of "vacation" I don't think employers think or care that it's a "vacation" (the experience of the person taking the leave) but rather that it's "paid time off" (the experience of the business paying the leave).

Surely retailers care about both of those. Most retailers keep N-1 enough employees on the payroll as it is.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#223

Post by growlist »

the_af wrote: post #118
toasterlovin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave. The asymmetry of experience is actually caused by child bearing, which can only be done by women. Maternal leave is downstream from that.

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is s…

I think it's worth pointing out that in the midst of this brave new world - where every woman is supposedly a kick-ass world-beating entrepreneur if only the damned patriarchy would get off her back - there are plenty of women that have zero interest in having a career, and see the point of their existence as being to have children and be a mother to them; and the erosion of wages as a consequence of womens' entry into the workplace has actually taken away the choice of being a full-time mum for many, by forcing them to work.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#224

Post by isodude »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #123
zozbot234 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still enable them in ways that don't involve working at a formal job. Doing chores, dealing with household issues, that kind of thing. Having a kid generally means that there's a lot of stressful work to do around the house, and you would be in the right position to deal with that.

All of that has been hired out, because my job enables me to. I do work I enjoy so I don’t have to do work I don’t enjoy.

The kids build their connection to you in weird ways, smell, touch etc. Avoiding that 100% until they speak could have weird effects in their attachment (said without any actual proof).

It's of course your choice, but just saying that that choice could end up biting you or the kid in the end.

No it's not fun hanging around kids all the time, but it takes a lot of not fun moments to get to the good parts.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#226

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #162

As an American, I find it hard to be patriotic about my country when my fellow citizens can’t muster up the political will to ensure any paid parental leave for most people. Edit: changed parental leave to paid parental leave

But... we are doing this. The President brought it up during the State of the Union.

> The Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) requires large organizations to offer employees up to 12 weeks of unpaid leave to care for a new child, sick relative or their own illness. Although a growing number of states have passed or are considering paid family leave laws, there is no nationwide equivalent.

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/...

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#227

Post by xorcist »

wincy wrote: post #40
sudoaza wrote: post #2

Germany has this and is awesome. 14 months paid leave to distribute among the two parents.

I’m curious what what happen if someone wanted to have ten kids and abused this system, and the mother didn’t work. At a gut I feel like I’d be less likely to have kids, not more, if I felt like I was burdening other people by accepting benefits like this. I have no worries as an American having as many kids as I want because I make a good salary, can afford them, and won’t take more than a weeks, maybe two weeks tim…

Perhaps it makes more sense when viewed from the perspective of the child?

Every child has the right to spend time with their parents. Every child has the right to an education. And so on. You should not be given less parental time just because you were born with nine siblings. It's not your choice.

I believe the "unwashed masses having lots of children and draining the wellfare systems" is a quite popular far right anti-immigration trope. And while that may even be true somewhere, as long as it remains individual cases, the economic impact on society is still net positive as long as those kids get an education and a job.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#228

Post by zionic »

aetimmes wrote: post #132

I'm a US male who's 1 month into my 6 months fully-paid paternity leave with our first child. My wife has roughly 4.5 months between banked PTO and FMLA/disability leave. I'm sitting at home right now watching/changing/feeding our baby while my wife is out at doctor's appointments taking care of her health. Having the flexibility to practice a modicum of self-care without neglecting the health and happiness of our ch…

6 months paid? Holy cow. Even 1 month would seem like such a luxury to me.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#229

Post by aguyfromnb »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #192
toomuchtodo wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of that has been hired out, because my job enables me to. I do work I enjoy so I don’t have to do work I don’t enjoy.

Being indoors all the time or having to care for a child 24/7 can be extremely isolating even in the best circumstances (where one isn't dealing with recovering from giving birth).

>Being indoors all the time or having to care for a child 24/7 can be extremely isolating

This doesn't jibe with my experience at all. My wife is quite enjoying being at home with the baby, and gets to spend as much time outdoors as she cares for, even in the harsh Canadian winter.

Sure there are some sleepless nights (for both of us), but I'm not sure where this idea comes from that caring for a baby is a 24/7 slog. Close friends of ours had 3 children in 4.5 years, and even they don't talk like it's utter drudgery. I guess YMMV.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#230

Post by pbhjpbhj »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #28
brazilianabroad wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd rather pay people to be with your kids than be with your kids? Wow Yeah I'd guess you'd be held back from being a crap dad

I would rather pay for someone else to do what I consider dreck work (changings, feedings, monitoring while they sleep) while still making time each evening to spend with them. Research has shown this to be optimal (time spent with your children later in life closer to adolescent years matters more than their younger years). https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jomf.12170

Your child is not a human-to-be, that's a trap I fell into. They are a human now, your son or daughter. We might think we're educating, nurturing them, growing them so they become good adults -- but it's the journey as much as the destination. Children deserve fulfillment in their lives too, not just a hope of future fulfillment. For a baby that means warm cuddles, soft voices, smiles, the care of those that love them -- despite their infirmity and dependency.

I think you're both missing out substantially if you think you can just jump in later after all the messy, hard, stuff is over.

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