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Education and Men without Work

nationalaffairs.com

221–230 of 342 posts

Re: Education and Men without Work

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, men have always been treated this way, in all societies: accomplish or disappear. The difference now is that automation is rendering the hill insurmountable.

>The difference now is that automation is rendering the hill insurmountable. I would say "the difference now is that the failing educational system is rendering the hill insurmountable." Automation is just tools. Reasonably able people can learn to use tools. But they need the means to do so affordably and effectively. Our system of education, however, is largely stuck two generations back and not up to the task of p…

the difference now is that the failing educational system is rendering the hill insurmountable.

As an aspiring educator, it's becoming increasingly obvious to me that society expects teachers to be miracle-workers, to motivate children so they study really hard and get into a good college. Yet we don't expect the same from parents. Parents are spending less and less time with their kids, while the demands for education are growing more and more intensive.

My grandfather got his first job after finishing the eighth grade. He worked for over five decades and raised six kids together with my grandmother, who was a homemaker her entire life. Both he and grandma grew up on farms with two-digit numbers of children in the family. Everyone worked from a young age and learned to provide for the household, boys and girls alike.

Nowadays, we expect kids to spend a quarter of their lives or more in school. We expect them to work extremely hard and compete for a spot in a top rated school. We give them no real responsibilities apart from academics. No, cleaning your bedroom or mowing the lawn are not real responsibilities the way milking the cows or making preserves from the garden produce were for my grandparents. If you don't clean your room, nobody will go hungry.

Life was much harder, physically speaking, for most people from my grandparents' generation and earlier, stretching back into antiquity. It was not harder to find purpose in life, however. Nature and the struggle to survive together with your family and community was enough for most people to feel fulfilled.

Today it's the complete opposite on both accounts. Extremely easy to survive with all of the benefits, cheap food and clean water, electricity and heating available. Finding meaning amid so much plenty, on the other hand, is a monumental task.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we don't need all the men. We only need a tiny percentage of men. Relevant: A single male galapagos turtle sired 800 offspring, single-handedly (well, I guess it wasn't his hand) saving his species from extinction. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/world/americas/diego-tort... > Also occupations used to be much more hazardous so many more die working. Right. Females are precious (in the eyes of genetics) because t…

>But we keep making the world safer and safer and now we are finding out that our culture no longer effectively knows what to do. I can't say I agree with everything in your post, but this assertion is reasonable. I'd say civilization has already discovered a partial solution to this problem: monogamy where men satisfy their evolutionary urges for usefulness through breadwinning. It isn't perfect for everyone but it'…

> I'd say civilization has already discovered a partial solution to this problem: monogamy where men satisfy their evolutionary urges for usefulness through breadwinning.

Yes, I agree. Strangely enough, I think outlawing polygamy is probably one of the most profoundly powerful cultural technologies humans have ever invented.

So putting this back together with the article, the author is showing how unskilled men are dropping out of the social contract. Because, for them, the opportunities for breadwinning are harder to find.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#223
post #74
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think most people care too much about that I feel like a LOT of people care strongly about this. Almost all of our national dialogue about immigrants, taxpayer-funded healthcare, etc, is centered around how unfair it is for Other People to get Free Stuff. The idea that we could _build housing and give it to homeless people_, or just pay for everyone's basic healthcare needs (even if you could still get bett…

> The idea that we could _build housing and give it to homeless people_, or just pay for everyone's basic healthcare needs (even if you could still get better by paying more), raises the ire of a significant portion of the population here. Does that surprise you that people who earned their own houses and their own healthcare through their own work resent the idea of skimming some of the fruits of their labor and giv…

[deleted]

Re: Education and Men without Work

#224

The article is long on detail and short on suggestions (which is understandable). However, the suggestions it does make are not obviously going to work. The men illustrated in the article do not seem incapable of work, but rather disinterested. Vocational training isn't going to fix the fact that the government benefits the article cited allows the men to stay at home playing video games all day. Most people (but esp…

What government benefits allows a man to stay at home and not work? Just curious. I have tried to get government benefits when I was unemployed and got nothing but a small amount of unemployment benefits. $275 a week. That doesn't cover anything. No Medicaid or housing help would be given as I did not have children.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#225
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brah. Most jobs are hot garbage right now and video games at least give you tangible goals and rewards. You don't have to be some Uber man to be happy in life, and even if you are super masculine you still will choose the path that feels best. If for whatever reason you're stuck in a place where you have to put in years of effort for a small chance that you might have a better life vs taking a non ideal but still acc…

You're partly right. I work for myself, I fucking love my work, I'm a proper hacker, actually own investment property, two sports cars, and have a pretty nice house paid off for a single guy at 29, but I can't find a decent woman to start a family with. I tried, before I got to where I am, I got out of a 6 year relationship with a girl who was a software engineer. We were perfect together, honestly. But at the end of…

This is interesting, because from my perspective you seem unhappy, angry, and thoroughly invested in seeing the cause as [a decaying culture in thrall to liberal values] rather than [your own fixation on winning and insistence that “decent” women are very rare]. Is it hard to imagine why those qualities might deter thoughtful and kind people?

I guess you might chalk this up as cerebral milquetoast pablum, but seriously, the aggression in your replies makes it hard for me to believe that you’re actually happy, and aren’t just distracting yourself from the things you’re angry about by accumulating generic attendants of happiness (property, cars, women!).

Re: Education and Men without Work

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What male socialization? Who are our teachers in the United States? Over three-quarters are women, less than a quarter men. And given that recent studies indicate that women teachers tend to rate boys (unfairly) lower than girls for the same performance, that's women's socialization teaching boys how to behave in schools. Societally? Go on, search to see what doodles Google made for Father's Day. Which parent seems t…

Not sure you really understand my point; "male socialization" is simply "the way we raise boys" -- which includes the ways we as a society neglect their needs. This isn't a "men versus women" thing, but rather a "we need to pay better attention to boys' emotional needs" thing. When you don't, you teach them that their emotions don't matter and aren't a thing they need to manage to have a healthy, happy life.

I'm not sure you understand my point: the way we raise boys has largely been ceded to women for a while now and heaping "toxic masculinity" (really, when was the last time you saw the second word without the first tugging it along?) shaming on men is just more of the same.

We need less of it.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, men have always been treated this way, in all societies: accomplish or disappear. The difference now is that automation is rendering the hill insurmountable.

>The difference now is that automation is rendering the hill insurmountable. I would say "the difference now is that the failing educational system is rendering the hill insurmountable." Automation is just tools. Reasonably able people can learn to use tools. But they need the means to do so affordably and effectively. Our system of education, however, is largely stuck two generations back and not up to the task of p…

Education is not a panacea. It never has been, and it's a myth from the 20th century that has, unfortunately, bled over into the 21st. The idea that as automation happens - and barring government intervention and regulation it will - that all we have to do is build a more robust and responsive education system these people would find fulfilling employment as technical managers or researchers themselves ... is just not true. I wish it was, but it isn't.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think people will care until the issue has become large enough that it will start impacting others in society indirectly. Eg not enough tax revenue being generated or not enough men willing to fight in a war.

I would wager that a lot of the people wasting time playing video games all day are precisely the ones who would benefit most from serving in the armed forces. Traditionally that is probably where a lot of them would have ended up.

You're right, they would be the ones that would benefit the most. Unfortunately, since many of them are already on disability and have prescriptions for certain drugs they'd likely be disqualified from service. Barring an actual WWIII scenario and a draft that would waive these restrictions, "join the Army" isn't an option.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#229

Benefits are much more generous and much easier to get in countries with much higher worker participation. And they have the same video games in other countries too. And marriage does not cause entry in the workforce, participation in the workforce is what makes marriage partners more interested. Reduction in benefits has not and is no increasing work participation. There was not spike in worker participation in the…

Welfare reform was always bullshit. It was a compromise where the Democrats got some added benefits and changes, and the Republicans got the ability to cut off traditional welfare and transition people to Social Security Disability

This pushed the costs off the states’ books and the federal budget, and made the costs a problem for social security. It backfired as it created a permanent underclass and drove up Medicaid utilization and costs.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#230

The article is long on detail and short on suggestions (which is understandable). However, the suggestions it does make are not obviously going to work. The men illustrated in the article do not seem incapable of work, but rather disinterested. Vocational training isn't going to fix the fact that the government benefits the article cited allows the men to stay at home playing video games all day. Most people (but esp…

What government benefits allows a man to stay at home and not work? Just curious. I have tried to get government benefits when I was unemployed and got nothing but a small amount of unemployment benefits. $275 a week. That doesn't cover anything. No Medicaid or housing help would be given as I did not have children.

$275 a week puts you above the federal poverty threshold, and so, according to the government, is enough to cover basic needs. It is a pittance for HN crowd, but there are tens of millions of people in the US who survive on less than that.
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