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Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

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Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#221

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I did this when I was young, and I don't think it got me anywhere. I should have spent my 20s doing a lot surfing or something, anything really other than what I did. I should have got home at 5, and if that got me fired, whatever, got another job.

I get what you're saying, and I respect 20 year olds who want to live that way, but I personally disagree. I had to work to support myself during college, so I was already used to the "grind". So I decided to keep up the high effort and accelerate my career while I was young. You can have fun at any age. But investments pay off over time, so it made sense to invest in myself early. Now that I have a good career and d…

>You can have fun at any age.

Yes, but you can't have the same type of fun at any age.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#222
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents were living this lifestyle. My dad routinely worked 100+ hour weeks, often sleeping on job sites and very often traveling for work. It kinda makes me chuckle a bit when I hear people say that 'nobody can do 80 hours!' when I spent my entire formative years watching my dad and everyone he knew doing exactly that but doing much harder labor. It really feels to me like people who say this stuff are either ver…

Being at work for 100 hours is different from actually putting in 100 hours of work. I have worked with people that stayed 80 hours a week, but only really worked around 20 hours on average. If your putting around while a 4 hour script runs, you’re there but not actually working during that time.

I've been with people who stayed at work 80 hours a week but really worked about 100 hours.

Some people really do work 100 hour weeks. Most people don't though.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#223
post #85

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Do you ever feel stressed, anxious, or trapped, with such a packed schedule? And do you ever feel regret over the value you produce due to the fact that you're stretched in so many directions? My career - I think - is heading in the same direction (though still early) and I have a severe problem internalizing every little thing and its relative yield to the business. Thankfully I only manage 3 people at a small compa…

Nope, I'm at my best in days like this. I feel immensely grateful I was given the opportunity and responsibility to lead and want other people to understand how great (in many senses of the term) that responsibility is. The days where we deep dive infrastructure problems or try and get at organizational technical problems are my favorite, but those are even longer days.

This is all cool, and I'm happy for you for your privilege and luck.

However, I'm not sure what your anecdote has to do with what Shopify's CEO is saying. Certainly your hours are not necessary, rather you (and/or your manager) just choose to do them? Or do you think your employer would be significantly damaged if you did not?

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#224

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I'm diagnosed with ADD and have a prescription for Ritalin/Concerta. I'm a full time programmer, and I think my sustainable "real work and focus" time is max 6 hours. Today looks more like 4. A higher dose does not increase that time, at least for me. I'm curious how those without add/adhd are affected.

I've heard from many people that if you're legitimately on the drug the experience is totally different than if you're taking it without a brain chemistry that needs it i.e. as a study drug. I wonder if that means that people who have ADHD could possibly have different or fewer side-effects than people without, if the two groups respond so differently. Are there any large scale studies about the long term health impl…

Any of that data is going to be mixed in with any studies on people who were (presumably) correctly diagnosed with attention disorders, because in the US, the "medication" is prescribed at triple the rate of the prevalence of the disorders: 15% vs 5%.

Source:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/big-pharma-s-manu...

Additionally: being someone who was misdiagnosed, and made to feel sick for 8 years resulting in very poor appetite, increased anxiety and intrusive thoughts, and stunted physical and social growth.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#225

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With the inordinate amount of time Musk spends on Twitter, I'm gonna go ahead and assume most of those 90 hours are not productive.

Most people (and competitors) underappreciate how well Elon manages requirements over Twitter. If you want to know why he selected the features for the Cybertruck, go back 1 year when he asked the desired features on Twitter. It's crazy how many of those small looking features (like a bed for normal sized / tall people, lighting in the back) were included in all models.

Also he's averaged about 2 tweets a day over the hols and it's often less. It's probably not a huge amount of time.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#226
post #26

What's unfortunate is that on the other side of the coin, "rockstar CEOs" like Elon Musk claim they sleep 4 hours a night and work 90 hour weeks. I think Musk does this mostly for publicity/image reasons and not that it's actually true, but you've got plenty of wantapreneurs parroting this (imo) unhealthy lifestyle.

Reddit AMA:

>How much do you sleep per night, on average?

>ElonMuskOfficial: I actually measured this with my phone! Almost exactly 6 hours on average.

The 4 hour thing seems kind of made up by journalists for clickbait as far as I can tell from a brief google. Though he was up last night working on Starship stuff that seems quite cool https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1210649166407438336

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offence, but I’ve done extremely creative and demanding intellectual work, and then work like you’ve listed. What you’re doing is valuable and useful work, but it is a lot easier to do. Much less mentally demanding.

This is generally the wrong attitude in my opinion. I've done both very technical/creative demanding work and the organizational work as I describe. What you realize after a while is that they are both hard, but in different ways because it's different work.

The question IMO is not whether it's easier or harder, but whether it's more or less sustainable. That in itself is two questions:

(1) Is it sustainable in the sense that you can remain productive throughout one day?

(2) Is is sustainable in the sense that you can keep doing it day after day?

I would say the answer to (1) is generally yes. Meetings usually require continuous partial attention rather than intense focus, involve multiple people, and often have built-in breaks. All of those help to prevent the problem of an exhausted lone programmer getting stuck in the weeds for hours before they realize - usually as soon as they take a break - that they've been looking in entirely the wrong direction.

The answer to (2) depends more on the person. For a true introvert, meetings all day will be incredibly draining, and even a conference lasting a few days can be intolerable without careful energy management. For an extrovert, such a schedule can be energizing and almost infinitely sustainable.

The key here is that for certain combinations of people and tasks a schedule like that is sustainable. However, that doesn't mean it's reasonable to expect programmers can do their job at that pace sustainably. Productivity will drop and/or they'll burn out. What irks me about these conversations is that people with personalities or situations that are amenable to one kind of work schedule are looking down their noses at people with completely different personalities or situations that make it a poor fit. I don't mean that as a criticism of you specifically, but others taking the same position or making the same points have displayed an appalling lack of empathy.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or loads of caffeine to the point it is questionable?

I would argue one cup of coffee a day every single day is questionable. We shouldn't be drugging ourselves just to reach some arbitrary deadlines

How about LSD, Mushrooms, Ayahuasca, MDMA? Should we be using those to expand perceptions?

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#229
post #28

I don't believe anyone really does 80 hours. I just don't think it is possible and I don't think you can call sitting at a desk doing nothing "work". I've done 60 hours during intense periods just fine... but it was only effective because of the nature of the work I was doing at the time. And, I usually took a break down the road to compensate. In no way was it even 50% creative work. 4 to 6 creative hours seems righ…

It’s definitely possible to work 80 hrs of real work per week. I’ve done it myself. Your mistake is probably underestimating how diverse people’s values are. If you have a strong enough reason why, working non stop is fulfilling (especially when it becomes habit).

> underestimating how diverse people’s values are

While we're valuing diversity, let's consider diversity of circumstance as well as attitudes. Working 80 hours a week is not the same for someone who's single and healthy vs. someone who is themselves disabled or who has family members who require significant care. Assuming or implying that it's only about values is exactly what makes this discussion so contentious. Many people have the "right" values but their work role or their non-work situation is not as conducive to long hours. Or maybe they've just read the actual research instead of relying on anecdata - especially cherry-picked (or outright fabricated) stories from CEOs and VCs who benefit more from others' overwork than those people do themselves. For most people, 80 hours per week is just not healthy or sustainable.

Re: Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

#230
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at Shopify for 4 1/2 years. I was happy to devote those creative hours because I believe in the mission. It's where I wanted my energy to be spent, and this was the general sentiment. You have to remember most of the people who work there can work almost anywhere. They have specifically chosen to dedicate 80% of their creative energy at Shopify.

Why did you leave? (I am just curious) I am considering applying for the company in the coming months.

I needed some serious change in my life. Stepping away from Shopify was very difficult, but felt like a good first step in where I was personally.

Honestly, I think about going back almost weekly. It's a fantastic company.

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