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Help me ask why you didn't just

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Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#221

Post by aww_dang »

valw wrote: post #214

Some programmers will ask you "why didn't you just" questions about something you've worked on for weeks, months or years, not because they think they're smarter than you, but because they never think about anything for weeks, months or years.

If I am that interested in the problem/solution I am also interested in discussing it. Answering the question straight and assuming good faith is a good way to open up that discussion. Even if they don't understand, there is still the chance that explaining it gives me a new perspective.

If I don't value interacting with that person, then I've already lost before I start. Communicate for its own sake. Enjoy the journey or don't bother with the destination. Expectations of being understood or being judged favorably just confuse the issue.

I understand why this becomes an issue, but I don't think it is productive to concern ourselves with such peccadillos. If these things become important, we might be starting from the wrong place.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#223

Post by joshuaellinger »

BerislavLopac wrote: post #144

My general approach has been to use someting along the lines of "is there a reason for not using sshd here?" Also, quite recently I had an experience where I used a quick solution without thinking about alternatives; a colleague simply said "I worked on a similar thing some time ago, and we did XYZ", which was not only better than my solution but also prompted me to think about alternative solutions. In the end I wen…

I like this quote from a colleague. Talk from personal experience and just state what you did or saw done. Add a value judgement on the past -- like " It was very stable." -- if you want. The suggestion to use X here is builtin and you aren't claiming to know more about the specific application than you do.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#224

Post by projektfu »

I’m just thinking about how in Medicine, lots of people would suffer if the helpers had trouble asking the basic questions.

“Did you submit cultures?”

“Why did you choose to ignore the liver enzymes in this case?”

“Did you ask about a family history of X?”

To a large extent, becoming professional is about becoming less sensitive to being wrong.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#225

Post by projektfu »

hanoz wrote: post #207

There's no reason to be jumping straight in with "why" in this situation at all, one can perfectly reasonably ask "have you tried using sshd". Why doesn't the author just try putting it that way?

He mentions that there are complaints about even that approach.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#226

Post by wccrawford »

swift532 wrote: post #206
jodrellblank wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is trying to ask "assuming I don't know better than the developer, and SSHD genuinely wasn't the right fit, how can I enquire about the reasons without seeming critical?" Your comment comes across as the opposite; "without knowing or caring about the reasons, how can I communicate that I know better and that SSHD should have been used - but dodge looking smug by asking it opaquely?" > Why was sshd not use…

To be frank, those hypothetical answers seem very hostile and I wouldn't want to work in an environment where communication works this way. Instead of saying "of course there would be" there could be a bit of a deeper discussion and the two people could figure out the best solution together. It's always supposed to be people against a problem, not people against people.

Yeah, all of their answers show that they never intended to take any advice.

If they were a junior developer here, they wouldn't make it to 3 months. If they were a mid-level developer, they'd get talked to about their attitude, and if they continued to be hostile, I'm pretty sure they'd be let go. It'd be a harder decision if they were passively hostile instead of overtly, actively hostile like those comments, but I think it'd show clearly enough anyhow.

The company here cares so much about the culture that my morning "standups" actually turned into hour-long random discussions daily, and management would walk by and say nothing, unless there was an emergency happening. (Thankfully seldom.) When one of us went remote, that turned into a video chat and they even wanted to schedule a second one in the afternoon, but we were all against it.

Toxic answers like the ones above could ruin that culture from someone with tenure, and we'd never let a novice with that attitude get far enough to affect things.

As for myself, I'm not as soft as the original questions, but I do soften my critiques. I'm honest about what I'm thinking about their code, and give my thoughts as to how it could be improved. When I think it won't actually cause a bug, I let them decide whether to take my advice or not, and most of the time they don't rewrite the code. (And often later find out that it was a mistake, but that might be years later.) Or it might not be a mistake. :D

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#227

Post by dblotsky »

The one I often go for is: “What is the reason you’re not using sshd?”

It implies that I understand there is a reason, that I don’t know the reason, and that I’m ready to be surprised if indeed there is no good reason.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#228

Post by tomxor »

carlmr wrote: post #176

My take from personal experience: Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending: => Why didn't you use sshd? Removing the "you" could make it less personal: => Why was sshd not used here? Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening): => Could s…

I've taken this a step further and often completely flip the wording to match the intended assumption which is that I am wrong:

> I can't figure out the reason X doesn't work

This is more often what I really mean, i.e there is some obvious solution (to me at least), but it's too obvious that they have likely already considered it and there is an issue with it... but they have been working on the problem longer than me - so tell me. Occasionally the solution is obscure enough or slightly unfamiliar to them that it slipped their mind - in which case it's an "oh of course" moment, which also causes no hurt feelings since you aren't trying to rub it in.

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#229

Post by theaeolist »

carlmr wrote: post #176

My take from personal experience: Removing the "just" obviously makes it less condescending: => Why didn't you use sshd? Removing the "you" could make it less personal: => Why was sshd not used here? Removing the past-tense makes it more forward looking (the past can't be changed, but people often defend their past decisions especially because they are unchangeable, the future however is less threatening): => Could s…

In a communication course my employer asked me to take a while back we were taught to a) never ask a yes-no question and b) never ask "why". So I would reformulate simply as

"How would sshd function in this setting?"

Re: Help me ask why you didn't just

#230

Post by aerojoe23 »

NotableAlamode wrote: post #218
mettamage wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Favoriting your comment here. You just gave 2 "learn within 1 minute social skills" lessons within one HN comment. There's a lot to unpack here. 1. Your way of analyzing on how it could be less threatening 2. The final answer to it being less threatening 3. Praise in public, criticize in private I'm normally not a fan of simple sentences, but the sentence of (3) is one I'll keep in mind when I'll start my career. Tha…

Praise in public, criticize in private In my (considerable) experience of working in large organisation (private and public), whether this works or not depends strongly on the power differential between praiser/criticiser and praisee/criticisee. Basically this is the most likely outcome: - Powerless praises publicly and criticises privately: criticism will be ignored, praise will be milked. - Powerless praises privat…

I agree with you. However I'd say leading with, "You are wrong" is risky. Unless you have a very good working relationship with them, always start with empithy and praise. "I think this will really work well for our clients. How do you handle 'reason they're wrong'?"

Obviously, do what the situation calls for, but I pissed many people off, without being wrong, telling them they are. I found really looking at it from their point of view first helps. Usually they're trying to solve a real problem, so at least take the time to understand it and how they see it.

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