The China Cultural Clash • Hacker News Board

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#221

Post by takamh » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 7:47 PM UTC

shalmanese wrote: post #101

One thing you learn from spending time studying China is that the Chinese state has an asymmetric advantage in much better understanding the US than the US understands China and being very good at deliberately structuring their systems and policies in a way that consistently exploits the weaknesses in how Western liberal democracies are organized. I think the much bigger story here is how China's state capitalism is…

It appears you have a good understanding of the motivations of both US and China. What's your take on the HK protests? It's impossible to find an unbiased news source and any request for information that even hints you're not completely in support of the activists is immediately attacked.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#222

Post by diego » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 7:47 PM UTC

viscanti wrote: post #191

knzhou wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Chinese consulate in Houston put out a statement condemning the tweet. Okay, perhaps. But that could also be them jumping on a popular bandwagon. I'm just raising this doubt because I've seen, many times on sites like this, enormous panics over supposed Chinese government actions, which actually boil down to totally innocuous actions from individuals. The most common cognitive bias when the West discusses the E…

> Okay, perhaps. But that could also be them jumping on a popular bandwagon. How could there be a bandwagon when twitter is banned in China (so no one could have ever seen the tweet), and immediately after the tween all Chinese social media blocked any posts related to the Houston Rockets? There was zero way for anyone in China to even know it was a thing or to be angry.

Lots of people in China (more than you'd imagine) use VPNs. If you want to verify this is true, ask anyone who's used Tinder in China.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#223

Post by bigpumpkin » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

chromaton wrote: post #119

How can we get Tim Cook to make a statement regarding democracy in Hong Kong? Either he refuses, which would be supporting the brutal crackdowns, or he forces China to act as they did like in the NBA case.

As much as I support democracy, you can't force people to make a statement supporting it.

And not speaking on something does not mean you support it.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#224

Post by drcode » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

throwawy4trueth wrote: post #189

drcode wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think totalitarian regimes like China and North Korea are OK, because "diversity"?

With same mentality and illusion, westerners collectively destroied Iraq, Libya, cause huge human rights issue. It's ridiculous that while condeming China's cencorship, a lot of truths are suppressed by downvoting based on the illusion that the activists here who believe they stand on a higher moral ground. Wake up guys, those who condemned China's human right abuse are the same people who are responsible for the suf…

Not sure if you're just a bot, but if not...

Can't you see that it's not a valid defense to just say "the other guys are doing it too?"

Yes, US actions in Iraq and Libya were stupid and bad, but how is that relevant to a discussion on the problems in China?

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#225

Post by whateveracct » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 7:54 PM UTC

LocalH wrote: post #184

knzhou wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always bemused to have to say this, but: nobody likes censorship because they enjoy "falling in line". People everywhere support censorship exactly to the degree that they agree with the censors. You probably didn't shed a tear when Alex Jones was deplatformed, because he's a scoundrel, and if this really did escalate to a full block of the NBA (which seems unlikely), by that point many Chinese citizens would pro…

This. So much this. Deplatforming is deplatforming. If one supported the deplatforming of Alex Jones, and doesn't also support China on this, then they are a hypocrite engaging in severe cognitive dissonance. Freedom of speech is not some "loophole" that allows people to say nasty things. It's a bulwark against authoritarianism. The ones who forget that need to study world history when it comes to freedom of speech a…

Why are you equating private entities deplatformimg vs government-controlled ones? They are fundamentally different things.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#226

Post by foogoloo » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 8:00 PM UTC

Merrill wrote: post #160

drcode wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think totalitarian regimes like China and North Korea are OK, because "diversity"?

North Korea is totalitarian, and it will hopefully change to something acceptable. I think of the current regime in China as more an authoritarian single party regime. We have tolerated or been allied with authoritarian single party regimes in earlier decades such as Taiwan under the KMT, Japan under the early LDP, and South Korea under Rhee. China places a higher priority on enforcing social harmony than the US, but…

The Chinese Communist Party places a high priority on social harmony because that’s what benefits them. Having freedom as long as no one notices you isn’t freedom.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#227

Post by throwawy4trueth » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 8:00 PM UTC

tpmx wrote: post #4

This article frames this as the US vs China, but it's really been the "Western world" vs China. And the western world has been incredibly naive and uncoordinated when it comes to dealing with China. We've all accepted the incredibly one-sided deal, in some kind of idealistic hope that the Chinese would latch on to "western" values of democracy etc just by trading with us. Edit: World -> Western world.

China didn't force you to accept their value. But you often (not always) force all the world to accept your cult (with the name of "value" to make it sounds not so irrational) by destroying many countries in Middle East.

The biggest threat is the cult because the cult will cause conflicts. Keep it for yourself would be good. Spread it all over the world and claim it's universal so you have right to judge others inferior "value" and even try to enforce your "value" when the other countries are weaker , literally is the same pattern as ISIS.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#228

Post by supertiger » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 8:00 PM UTC

mark_l_watson wrote: post #153

I also have mostly been a supporter, at least in spirit, of China. I enjoyed traveling there and I respect their tech abilities. My support has changed, and I can’t help but think that this is about the ego of Chinese leadership, since it seems like they are making some poor decisions. Perhaps even stupid decisions. I also wonder what the effect of President Trump has had in the poor decision making process of Chines…

>I can’t help but think that this is about the ego of Chinese leadership

It is and isn't. I grew up in China and I think the Chinese government is overacting to this NBA statement. If the Chinese fans decide to boycott NBA that's their choice and rights, but the government should not ban NBA in China.

At the same time, I am frustrated to see so much misconception and lack of empathy in the discussions here. The territorial integrity of China has a very important place in the minds of many Chinese citizens if not all given the recent 100 years of Chinese history. HK is globally recognized as part of China but yet we have seen all western media's efforts to spread anti-HK police sentiment and turn a blind eye on the violent activities carried out by so-called protestors.

I've lived in the US for over a decade. Before coming here, I had no idea how sensitive racial comments are. Over time I learned about the history and never made a racial joke in public or private occasions. It's not the best analogy, but I want to point out that Morey's HK tweet is out of line and doesn't deserve NBA's endorsement.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#229

Post by tomp » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 8:01 PM UTC

juanjmanfredi wrote: post #200

LocalH wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. So much this. Deplatforming is deplatforming. If one supported the deplatforming of Alex Jones, and doesn't also support China on this, then they are a hypocrite engaging in severe cognitive dissonance. Freedom of speech is not some "loophole" that allows people to say nasty things. It's a bulwark against authoritarianism. The ones who forget that need to study world history when it comes to freedom of speech a…

Twitter, Facebook, and any other entity that deplatformed Alex Jones are private companies and can deplatform whoever they want. In fact that is part of their freedom of speech. This is different from government-enforced silencing of speech, which is what is happening in China right now. I feel no cognitive dissonance, but maybe you can explain more why I should.

NBA are not legally controlled by Chinese laws. They're censoring speech because they want to (a.k.a. it's profitable), not because they're being forced to.

Re: The China Cultural Clash

#230

Post by adventured » Tue, Oct 08, 2019, 8:03 PM UTC

samcheng wrote: post #67

> And then there is Apple: the company is deeply exposed to China both in terms of sales and especially when it comes to manufacturing. The reality is that, particularly when it comes to the latter, Apple doesn’t have anywhere else to go. For what it's worth, I know of multiple Chinese companies that are themselves moving manufacturing overseas, primarily to South East Asia. I'm not convinced that the multinationals…

> I'm not convinced that the multinationals have nowhere else to go.

Samsung is making most of their phones outside of China. It's clear you can push most multinational manufacturing back out of China. There are several dozen countries to redistribute that manufacturing to. I've probably read 50 or 60 articles in the past year that touch on the varied types of companies moving out of China, from bicycles to bathroom fixtures to clothing to tires.

The far bigger Apple issue, is that they don't want to lose the consumer side of the Chinese market. It's trivial for the Chinese authorities to snap their fingers and make Apple persona non grata in China. It wouldn't even take very long, a short duration of total disruption would be enough to wipe out Apple's market share. They'd never get it back, there are plenty of good domestic alternatives.

For a company the size of Apple, losing half their position in China could mean losing half a trillion dollars in revenue over the next ~20 years. Beyond the hardware, China's extremely large consumer market is no doubt perceived to be very important for Apple's services shift over time.