Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#221

Post by partialrecall » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:43 AM UTC

tzs wrote: post #206

selfawareposter wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for the part where he got taken to a remote island by a billionaire and was presented with a very young woman who immediately wanted to have sex with him.

You mean the island that Epstein regularly invited numerous people to in order to discuss assorted legitimate things, like supporting their charities or their research? Epstein's island wasn't some stereotypical villain lair where anyone who steps foot on it must be up to no good. It was a place that he conducted the normal business that any entirely legitimate billionaire would conduct, in addition to the villain st…

> "Epstein's island wasn't some stereotypical villain lair where anyone who steps foot on it must be up to no good."

This isn't applicable to the specific case of Minsky, but I think that ambiguity evaporates after Epstein's first conviction.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#222

Post by pryce » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:43 AM UTC

tzs wrote: post #140

danso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone emailed an event for protesting Minsky, and Stallman accused her of wrongly inflating the term "sexual assault" when using it to refer to Minsky and Epstein. Stallman bends over backwards for Minsky, saying that he shouldn't be automatically to blame if Epstein forced someone to have sex with him. It's little different than the absurd pretzel that Lessig bent himself into when trying to defend his friend Joi…

> It's little different than the absurd pretzel that Lessig bent himself into when trying to defend his friend Joi Ito It's massively different, because Joi Ito's interactions with Epstein were after Epstein's sexual atrocities were known. Minsky's were in 2001, which as far as I have been able to find is before Epstein was known to be evil.

Minsky arranged a second conference with Epstein, on Epstein's private island in 2011 [1].

What sources were you using that implied Minsky's contact with Epstein stopped 10 years before that?

[1] https://www.pr.com/press-release/383199

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#223

Post by ocschwar » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:44 AM UTC

fortran77 wrote: post #172

coolandsmartrr wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little tangential, but I didn't know there was a utility called `finger`. Is this supposed to be a profile directory envisioned for an Internet back when it was more decentralized?

There was a time when nobody was "NAT"ed and basically every workstation had an Internet Address. I would sit at my office at Olivetti Advanced Technlogy and be able to "finger" people's workstations at Sun, HP, and Adobe and see what they were up to.

In my undergrad years, if the campus police got a panicky parent call, they'd send an officer to the computer club to ask us to finger every host on the campus.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#224

Post by jlawson » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:45 AM UTC

tbabb wrote: post #127

roywiggins wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it comes down to whether RMS's position at CSAIL amounted to a leadership position or not, I'd venture that it did. Professors have institutional power that everyone else on the CSAIL list who isn't one don't have. Someone who abuses their name and position to blast screeds like that, I can see why CSAIL might not want him around anymore.

Being a leader of any sort makes it worse, but I don't think it's a necessary condition for justifying his removal. Each person contributes to the flavor of the community in which they participate. It is within the right of those who lead the community to curate its flavor by adding or removing people when necessary. In this his case, his removal was well-justified for the cause of keeping the community welcoming and…

If Stallman's email made anyone feel 'unsafe', either that person has serious mental issues for such they should seek therapy, or they are pretending/self-generating these emotions as a way of gaining political leverage and power.

In fact, your message here makes me feel unsafe right now. Something needs to be done, call the mods.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#225

Post by partialrecall » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:46 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #205

partialrecall wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it should go without saying that atypicality is not a binary matter.

Sure. I know people "on the spectrum," I know people with various forms of PTSD, I know people with bipolar, I know people with ADHD, I know plural folks, etc., and none of them act like RMS. I know very friendly, conscientious, and kind neuroatypical folks. I know brusque and tactless neuroatypical folks with whom it's draining to interact in certain ways. They still don't act like RMS. So the (implicit) argument "T…

I know a lot of people who's actions, quirks, opinions and beliefs are unique. Stallman is the only person I've ever known to eat toe-cheese, let alone do it in public. The fact that other neuroatypical people I know don't eat their toe cheese does not suggest to me that eating toe cheese isn't behavior attributable to neuroatypicality.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#226

Post by nemothekid » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:46 AM UTC

eoxenford wrote: post #122

Throughout this whole brouhaha, I’ve been astonished at how nobody in the mainstream press, nor any of those in tech calling for Stallman’s head, ever challenged the statement that Stallman said Epstein’s victims were “entirely willing.” Indeed, quite the opposite. From the Medium post that kicked the whole thing off [1]: …and then he says that an enslaved child could, somehow, be “entirely willing”. And from Vice [2…

I don't fully understand the point you are trying to make. At the end of the day, Stallman is trying whitewash Minsky's responsibility by trying to pretend that a 70-something year old man didn't know that the underage girl at convicted Jeffrey Epstein's private island wasn't actually "entirely willing".

In other words, he's taking us on this garbage thought experiment that Minsky is somehow an innocent bystander. To even arrive at that talking point is asinine.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#227

Post by michaelmrose » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:48 AM UTC

zenhack wrote: post #174

Something that I think most folks in this thread are missing, that's hugely important to what actually happened here: This was not an isolated incident. If it were, I'd look at his comments and write it off as his usual tendency to jump on a minor point and derail a conversation with some totally pedantic technicallity, and I do think the thing he actually said in this case has been wildly mis-interpreted and oversta…

Can you please link some claims of him harassing and propositioning and harassing students?

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#228

Post by wyldfire » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:48 AM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #95

wyldfire wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CSAIL is not a role, it's the institution: "MIT Computer Science & Artificial Intelligence Laboratory"

I understand, ok. And what where the actual role of Stallman in this laboratory? Updated: explained below, answering to mail lists. Resigning does not seem like a big deal.

> Resigning does not seem like a big deal.

IIRC he had an emeritus position? So the big deal is his loss of reputation/prestige as a result of his involvement and/or comments regarding this scandal.

Aside: I am just relaying what I've read so far, I don't know anything about the allegations of offensive things RMS may have said or done.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#229

Post by partialrecall » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:49 AM UTC

javagram wrote: post #208

partialrecall wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're viewing the history of journalism through rose-tinted glasses. In the late 19th century, American newspapers conspired to start a war for no good reason. That dwarfs anything they've done recently (although the NYTime's role in starting the so called "war on terror" might come close.)

That’s why I said the 20th century, the “yellow press” I mentioned was the 19th century papers you’re talking about. They did anything to sell a headline - in the 20th century, ethical standards for media were better for a while, although of course they have always been susceptible to influence by the government as you mention (whether Iraq, Vietnam, or more justifiable wars).

In the 20th century the NYTimes acted as Stalin's mouthpiece for 50 years, denying the Soviet-perpetrated genocide in Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Walter...

Which, again, is worse than anything they've done recently.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#230

Post by shantly » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 2:50 AM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #217

coolandsmartrr wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little tangential, but I didn't know there was a utility called `finger`. Is this supposed to be a profile directory envisioned for an Internet back when it was more decentralized?

We shall not talk about it due to the connotations of its name, but rest assured those responsible have been liquidated.

I'm pretty sure it was intended in the sense of "to finger a suspect" (cf git blame) rather than anything vulgar.

I think the tendency to take anything, in nearly any context, that could even maybe be vulgar, as vulgar 100% of the time, is actually relatively recent.