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Does the Amazon provide 20% of our oxygen?

yadvindermalhi.org

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Re: Does the Amazon provide 20% of our oxygen?

#221
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why is the soil layer in the Amazon only about a meter deep after millions of years of carbon sequestration? The rainforest photosynthesizes about 3 kg of carbon per square meter per year.

The soil is not only a meter deep. In most places it's several meters deep and it's that deep despite constant heavy rains and erosion. The soil does not need to be millions of meters deep in order for the forest to be both a net carbon sink and net positive oxygen producer -- it can slowly acrue over time. And even if biological respiration processes in the forest began to equal carbon sequestration processes -- the…

It's about a meter deep on average, but it's such a moot point to quibble over because it's too low by a factor of about 100,000. If it were 100 meters deep, we'd still have to answer the same question.

Yes, the rainforest has been a massive carbon sink over its 30+ million year lifetime - because of the carbon it sequestered while it was first growing and expanding.

Yes, it could be producing very, very tiny amounts amounts of oxygen each year so that the rise in soil level isn't noticeable. If the rainforest was still slowly sequestering carbon in soil at a rate of about 1 meter of soil depth per 30 million years, then you're talking about it sequestering about 0.00005% of the carbon it captures through photosynthesis. If you're calling the article "completely wrong" over that, I'm not sure what to say.

And it's not just the yearly rate of oxygen production that must be negligible. The total oxygen produced over the Amazon's lifetime is negligible. As the article points out, if you burned the entire Amazon rainforest, releasing all the sequestered carbon, it would only decrease atmospheric oxygen from about 20.95% to 20.93%.

Re: Does the Amazon provide 20% of our oxygen?

#222
post #214
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A bunch of people are coming away from reading that article believing that forests have no impact on global carbon sequestration and oxygen production. If you were really concerned about people misunderstanding the article, you would not make up claims and attribute them to the author. Instead you would quote the relevant parts of the article to demonstrate what is actually being said. The author in no way claims t…

> If you were really concerned about people misunderstanding the article, you would not make up claims and attribute them to the author. Instead you would quote the relevant parts of the article to demonstrate what is actually being said. What on Earth are you referring to? > The author in no way claims that the Amazon is in equilibrium Yes he does. As I already explained to you, the author asserts that the O2 produc…

> At this point all I can do is refer you to a dictionary.

The paper you cited as "disproving" the author's argument for "prefect equilibrium" was co-authored by the author.

Indeed, in the comments on the article, the author explains further:

>> [net carbon sequestration] is not related to the total amount of photosynthesis, but to where organic matter is being buried and removed from atmosphere and biosphere. This occurs in places like swamps, peat bogs and in particular deep ocean sediments. Material from the Amazon probably plays some role in this (e.g. organic material being swept out into the ocean and being buried in deep sediment), but this process is not strongly related to the amount of photosynthesis in any given area. I suspect the burial of a tiny fraction ocean plankton in deep sediments play a dominant role here.

> Fear mongering? Now you've truly lost me. If asserting that forests net sequester carbon and produce O2 makes me a fear monger, then I'm guilty as charged...

Sorry, I am talking about making claims like "the amazon produces 20% of our oxygen." and I was doing so to justify what you called "nitpicking"

The point I was trying to make (and clearly did a poor job with) is summarized by the author in one of his responses to attacks like yours and strainers:

>> No ecosystem scientist I have spoken disagrees with the science in this post: it simply highlights a long-established scientific understanding that oxygen angle is a myth. Just like no serious climate scientist denies the seriousness and importance of human-caused made climate change. If you choose to be selective about which science to choose to hear you fall into the same trap as the climate deniers, construct your own alternative facts universe and you betray your scientific training. The also open yourself the other, more accurate arguments being discredited as a package when the scientific truth emerges

Re: Does the Amazon provide 20% of our oxygen?

#223
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that article show? Can you explain how that has any relavance to the impact on global oxygen levels? Why are you still conflating O2 and CO2? Edit: You do realize that "Y. Malhi", one of that authors of that paper, is the same "YADVINDER MALHI" who wrote this blog post.

> Why are you still conflating O2 and CO2? That should be obvious. Any evidence of amazon sequestering carbon is evidence of amazon liberating oxygen. If you cant bear that in mind you have been distracted by the artificial separation proposed here, between "a strong carbon sink" sinking carbon and the respiring of O2, they are very effectively both expressions of the same process. > one of that authors of that paper…

> they are very effectively both expressions of the same process.

But the effects on global atmospheric composition are not equivalent as has already been explained to you. The fact that you seem to choose to deliberately not understand this does not speak well of you.

> The claim is wrong, and hangs only on the ambiguities of what "effectively zero" could be argued to mean that is in reality documented to be very far from zero indeed.

There are no ambiguities, the caveats of that statement are quite clearly stated in the article.

> Malhi's advisory 9% figure (that is then subsequently reduced to zero?!) is not even necessarily more final or uncontestable as the supposedly terrible global media outbreak of 20% reports.

Nobody ever said it was final or uncontestable (that's not how science works). It is a fairly rough estimation, but even as such it is FAR more accurate and its precision is sufficient for popular discussion.

> The point of publicity figure is to be defensible and educate the fact that the Amazon has had and can have major effects on the atmospheres important constituents. That whether it is currently in equilibrium or a great carbon sink or grave carbon emitter - is a very grave matter because by its size and history it is capable of all those things.

Neither I nor the author dispute the importance of the amazon. What is disputed is the bad science that is being spread by the well-intentioned but misinformed.

Atmospheric O2 levels are not a problem, atmospheric CO2 levels are.

What do you think you are accomplishing by attacking environmental scientists and spreading misinformation? Are you really trying to help spread accurate knowledge about climate change? How does this help with that?

Re: Does the Amazon provide 20% of our oxygen?

#224
post #216
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The author is stating that the Amazon rainforest is in perfect equilibrium without citing any studies or evidence. There are plenty of studies that indicate otherwise, such as this 30 year survey involving 100 researchers: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14283 Y. Malhi, one of the authors of that paper, is also the author of this blog post. That makes sense since he a preeminent rainforest ecologist who publi…

Yes, you also pointed out this fact up above in the comment chain as well. And as @strainer pointed out, it leaves us with more questions than answers. Specifically: how could he have participated in the study but publish a blog post that contradicts the primary conclusions of the study?

> how could he have participated in the study but publish a blog post that contradicts the primary conclusions of the study?

Short answer: Because the article doesn't contradict the study at all.

1) The rainforest is a carbon sink: It holds carbon that would otherwise be present in the atmosphere as CO2.

2) The rainforest is currently a net carbon sink: As an ecosystem it takes in more CO2 than it releases.

3) The rainforest (like most ecosystems) operates fairly close to equilibrium: The amounts of CO2/O2 consumed and produced tend to be pretty close.

4) Major ecological net carbon sinks depend less on the amount of photosynthesis in the ecosystem than they do on the sequestration of bio-matter into the ground.

5) There is ~500x more O2 than CO2 in the atmosphere. This means that the effects of the carbon cycle on atmospheric O2 are far less pronounced than on CO2.

6) net oxygen production of the amazon is effectively 0 (millions of years before a significant impact) because of 5) and 3)

In what way do any of these points contradict eachother?

The major reason (carbon cycle related, excluding biodiversity & global weather patterns & cooling etc) to care about about the amazon is to avoid releasing the CO2 already there. Purely in terms of net carbon sinking ecosystems, we should be paying more attention to our oceans as they do a much better job of sequestering that carbon into the ground.

Oxygen in the atmosphere is simply not an issue because we have so much of it.

Re: Does the Amazon provide 20% of our oxygen?

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US at least, no release form is required of those pictured in a news article.

In the US at least, a release form is required of those pictured in a news article by name for articles published by the AP or any major city newspaper like the NYT, Chicago Tribune, WaPo, or LA Times...

Nope, even the big publications do not use or need release forms for photos in news reporting.

If you are in public and the photo is “newsworthy” your image can be printed in a newspaper without your consent.

“Use of someone's name or likeness for news reporting and other expressive purposes is not exploitative, so long as there is a reasonable relationship between the use of the plaintiff's identity and a matter of legitimate public interest.” - http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/using-name-or-likeness-anoth...

Re: Does the Amazon provide 20% of our oxygen?

#226
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are you still conflating O2 and CO2? That should be obvious. Any evidence of amazon sequestering carbon is evidence of amazon liberating oxygen. If you cant bear that in mind you have been distracted by the artificial separation proposed here, between "a strong carbon sink" sinking carbon and the respiring of O2, they are very effectively both expressions of the same process. > one of that authors of that paper…

> they are very effectively both expressions of the same process. But the effects on global atmospheric composition are not equivalent as has already been explained to you. The fact that you seem to choose to deliberately not understand this does not speak well of you. > The claim is wrong, and hangs only on the ambiguities of what "effectively zero" could be argued to mean that is in reality documented to be very fa…

Please I have not attacked the professor at all. I have "attacked" an article which has you calling a statement which in all likelihood originates from the advice of an earth scientist > "bad science" and "mis-information" and has you defending the claim that the amazon ecosystems contribution to atmospheric oxygen "effectively zero" And that practically extends to co2 - any caveats are in fact in contradiction to the professors advice that fires and organisms use up all the produced oxygen. But we've already gone through that and are talking past each other now.

Re: Does the Amazon provide 20% of our oxygen?

#227
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My point was he hasn't cited that research - if it is concluded ? published? reviewed? I am far more willing to take the word of an established and respected expert who understand the subject mater than a random internet person with a poorly contextualized citation. You can find the author's published papers on this and related subjects quite easily at the top of the article. > He seems to be just having a technica…

The problem is I feel that he has confused understanding of the subject here rather than clarifying it, which is an easy thing for anybody to do in a conversational article. Here is a recent work[1] which substantiates matters that Amazons practical involvement in the planets atmospheric oxygen/carbon levels is really not as the professor felt like putting it as "effectively zero". > Abstract: The response of the Ear…

The blogs author is a co-author of the article you linked.
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