Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss • Hacker News Board

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#221

Post by tomjen3 » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 5:11 PM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #198

tomjen3 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The restrictions on freedom of speech, etc in the UK during WWII would easily be called facists today, and they are entirely incompatible with the US constitution. I would also argue that rationing in general is incompatible with a free country. If necessary add a fair tax that is ear-marked to deal with global warming and which ofsets the damage. No reason to add more bureaucracy.

Depends - All countries restrict speech, including the US, it's only the degree. US Supreme court felt restricting speech against the draft in WW1 was constitutional, and only overridden half a century later. Limiting freedom of speech somewhat is miles away from becoming fascist. I don't see how rationing impacts a free country one way or another as it's merely a method of achieving a fair distribution of a limited…

I would argue that it was less free.

But more to the point: rationing is stupid, since you are strictly better of taxing the good you want to limit, and if necessary spend some of the tax in direct payments to those with the least income. The free market will take care of pricing the use of the taxed commodity correctly and the poor will be better of.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#222

Post by PorterDuff » Sun, Aug 25, 2019, 3:13 AM UTC

kilian wrote: post #120

PorterDuff wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Any time overpopulation isn't mentioned as a (or 'the') primary cause, my nictitating membranes close up and I lose interest in reading.

I have a hard time seeing the overpopulation argument as anything other than classist and racist nonsense. It's not the vast majority in developing nations that are using up all our fossil fuels and poisoning the planet, it's us. And the damage being done in developing nations is nearly all to serve our needs in the developed world. We are the problem. See also things like https://www.euronews.com/2019/06/10/carnival…

Dunno why it's classist or racist. I'll put forth the proposition that there are too many people in the US.

Imagine the greenhouse load reduction from having half the population. It wouldn't surprise me if it's easier to push population growth down than it is to have good habits, especially after the low hanging fruit is plucked.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#223

Post by NeedMoreTea » Sun, Aug 25, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #221

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends - All countries restrict speech, including the US, it's only the degree. US Supreme court felt restricting speech against the draft in WW1 was constitutional, and only overridden half a century later. Limiting freedom of speech somewhat is miles away from becoming fascist. I don't see how rationing impacts a free country one way or another as it's merely a method of achieving a fair distribution of a limited…

I would argue that it was less free. But more to the point: rationing is stupid, since you are strictly better of taxing the good you want to limit, and if necessary spend some of the tax in direct payments to those with the least income. The free market will take care of pricing the use of the taxed commodity correctly and the poor will be better of.

Rationing isn't stupid, nor taxing necessarily better. If there's time it's no doubt better to start with taxation and see how far that gets us. Quite possibly not far enough:

In the case of wartime fuel rationing, and perhaps if we were to end up with a carbon ration, it achieves a fair distribution, without the wealthy simply being able to pay extra not to participate. With enough wealth someone may not care that something carries a punitive tax rate, and they can continue being part of the problem.

In times of crisis, such as wartime or a failing ecosystem, we may find that ability to pay your way out of it unacceptable. Reasonably so in my opinion.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#224

Post by lcall » Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

Late to this, but I commented in 2 recent discussions:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20339865

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20353814

...in effect that we are not competent to solve this or our other key problems while rejecting the creator (and basic rules like honesty and the Golden Rule), and that none of the current events should be surprising at all, though they are sad. These are predicted, expected, and it will get worse, but we can be at peace and seek good things, and really, we can be OK. Linked to details on why I think that, and more info.

Re: Yes, I’m Feeling Bad About Climate Change. Let’s Discuss

#225

Post by n4r9 » Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 9:44 AM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #211

n4r9 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but they're very relevant to the process of convincing people to accept those results, which is potentially a big part of the solution.

This seems to be the mantra, justify manipulation of people through emotions to push through a solution. The problem with this is that who decides what solution? If the motive for the solution is emotions, then any solution that "feels good" or "appears to solve" the problem will suffice.

> If the motive for the solution is emotions

This is a stark misrepresentation of my point. Persuading people to accept climate change is (or at least may well be) part of the solution. Persuasion involves an emotional aspect for the majority of people.

On a broader note, motives unavoidably involve emotion, or at least a value judgement. Scientific results never inform what ought to be done. Science does not provide values. It's a tool that helps us to achieve valued outcomes.