Productivity and the Workweek (2000) • Hacker News Board

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#221

Post by wbronitsky » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 3:21 PM UTC

brixon wrote: post #220

wbronitsky wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe many people, including myself, are caught up on the idea of taking "someone else's work". I personally would be much more comfortable with the items you suggest if they either had not been assigned to someone (new or backlog task), or organically offered up (someone says they probably won't get to a task during standup or somesuch). Additionally, it would seem that you are assuming that the dev is doing som…

I think the root of the issue I am getting backlash on is team work vs individual work. If you are using Agile as a process to just organize work then ignore all my comments. I am using Agile/Scrum as a way to build strong development teams (not just groups of individual developers). For the locking sprints, that is a matter of protecting the developers from management and the customer. The product backlog can be mov…

I feel like your last point does not address my criticism. The devs should feel like they have control, not the management, I agree. But my argument is we extend that control to allow devs to pull new tasks into the sprint if they are done.

Sure, you’ll have to explain the optics to management when they ask “how come the devs get to control their own process instead of me,” but with your conviction in the Scrum Master role, I’m sure that wouldn’t be too big of a problem, and would allow for everything you and I are arguing for, right?

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#222

Post by jimbokun » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

barefoot wrote: post #166

oarabbus_ wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I second what the previous guy said - what could you possibly be spending 4 hours daily on? Anyone who claims to be current and moving ahead in all 8 of those areas would immediately set off red flags and signal to me that they definitely aren't current in all those areas.

I would argue that I'm current on the machine learning and practical software development side and minimally current on the others and improving. To offer some background, on the machine learning side I've built and deployed over one hundred models using nearly every major machine learning technique available today. To stay sharp I actively compete in Kaggle and other competitions (and have won a few small competitio…

What is your end goal?

C-level executive? Having your own start up? Retire early? Researcher who goes to a lot of conferences and applies state of the art techniques to solve problems?

Sounds like most of the things you are working on are just making you a more efficient cog in large organizations. But in terms of compensation, sounds like the skills you are pursuing will have diminishing returns for increasing your compensation, with out a clear goal and road map for where you want to end up.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#223

Post by knightofmars » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #209

knightofmars wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The middle class is shrinking in the US, because they're moving up. This is only half the picture. The middle class is shrinking in the US, because some are moving up and some are moving down.

According to the US Census data, the percentage of households that are low income is smaller than ever. https://fee.org/articles/why-our-shrinking-middle-class-is-a...

No, according to Mark J. Perry and FEE the percentage of households that are low income is smaller than ever, not the US Census data. This article cherry picked $35,000 as the middle to lower class threshold for a reason.

The Brookings Institute, "Our definition is a relative one, meaning that the thresholds pictured above will shift as the income distribution changes shape. If income rises across the distribution, so too will the thresholds that delimit middle-class incomes."

Long-running non-biased standard measures of middle-class do not agree with this article's definition of where the middle-class starts and ends:

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/the-american-midd...

https://www.brookings.edu/who-are-the-middle-class/

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#224

Post by knightofmars » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #208

anonymousJim12 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Executives live in a global economy. The rest of us might "operate" in one but we don't get to take advantage of that privilege the way the wealthy do. You are right, world wide poverty is on the decline. But given the choice between: - better for 1 billion people - worse for 2 billion people - really outstandingly fantastic for 200 people and - really good for 5 billion people - worse for 200 people I know which way…

It's slightly worse for white men in the West who had a historically unique period of prosperity immediately following WWII. It's still nominally better for them, it's just not relatively better compared to everyone else. It's better for women, it's better for minorities, it's better for immigrants, it's better for the billion people who escaped poverty since just 1990. What are the big complaints compared to 50 year…

Unless I'm mistaken, the premise these arguments always seem to follow is, just because people in general have a better standard of living now than in the past we should ignore the following questions.

Why the majority of profits from productivity gains over the last 40 years have gone to a select few who are already wealthy?

Why the rate of increase of our standard of living hasn't been on par with the rate of productivity gains?

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#225

Post by harshalizee » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

barefoot wrote: post #90

UglyToad wrote: post #21

I'd be interested to know if other software developers feel their current working hours are good/positive? From feedback I've had I'm generally regarded as pretty good at my job and highly productive but my current working hours leave me completely drained, to the point I go home and collapse on the sofa, make dinner and go to bed. And that's off an 8.5 hour day. It's at the point now where it's extremely likely I'll…

After you collapse on the sofa for a few minutes you then get back to work keeping yourself current, right? A reasonable measure of what it takes to stay current and relevant in this industry is twenty hours of dedicated reinvestment per week. Often times this reinvestment time is not afforded at work and as much as employers want to provide this as a benefit to developers, few offer the resources or time to allow de…

What the heck! This is how you fall into a deep despair of depression because you wake up one day and realize your greatest skill is leetcode and job hopping. 12 years in the industry, I can tell you that you'll be fine with zero grinding. Once you learn how to learn, you can pick up anything you want on your employer's time if you have your fundamentals down. You have a life outside of SE, live it.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#226

Post by Consultant32452 » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

knightofmars wrote: post #224

Consultant32452 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's slightly worse for white men in the West who had a historically unique period of prosperity immediately following WWII. It's still nominally better for them, it's just not relatively better compared to everyone else. It's better for women, it's better for minorities, it's better for immigrants, it's better for the billion people who escaped poverty since just 1990. What are the big complaints compared to 50 year…

Unless I'm mistaken, the premise these arguments always seem to follow is, just because people in general have a better standard of living now than in the past we should ignore the following questions. Why the majority of profits from productivity gains over the last 40 years have gone to a select few who are already wealthy? Why the rate of increase of our standard of living hasn't been on par with the rate of produ…

I don't believe those questions are genuine.

As a thought experiment... Let's assume for a moment that we both agree on these two points. First, that taxes, social safety nets, and regulations impact things like income and wealth inequality. Second, that income and wealth inequality was better 40 years ago. How many people are willing to turn back the clock on taxes, social programs, and regulations to what they were 40 years ago when we imagine that things were better? I've personally never met a single person who complains about wealth/income inequality who would take that deal.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#227

Post by spraak » Fri, Aug 23, 2019, 10:35 PM UTC

UglyToad wrote: post #96

barefoot wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After you collapse on the sofa for a few minutes you then get back to work keeping yourself current, right? A reasonable measure of what it takes to stay current and relevant in this industry is twenty hours of dedicated reinvestment per week. Often times this reinvestment time is not afforded at work and as much as employers want to provide this as a benefit to developers, few offer the resources or time to allow de…

Haha, yes, I recognise a lot of myself in this description. My previous job was a start-up and I was working maybe 8.30-6.30 most days with 20-30 minutes lunch and also working on open source software in the evenings (I still do the open source stuff and it's one of the few things I actually enjoy). I also attended regular exercise classes and the job came with crunch periods. Despite switching jobs a year ago to an…

It really seems to depend on the company culture (which itself depends on the actual product) and office setup. E.g. I work remotely, spend time throughout the day relaxing and always done by 3pm and very well compensated

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#228

Post by spraak » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 6:27 AM UTC

0xffff2 wrote: post #164

cc-2 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've begun to think most software engineering should be done remotely. Easier to get into a flow state, no need to look busy, and you can work at times when you are most focused. I transitioned to full time remote, and routinely work 5 hour days, and get more done than when I was working 8-10 hr days

Or we just need better offices. I hate working from home and don't want to have to rent a separate office space on my own dime. Luckily for me I work somewhere where I have a real office (with a door!) and no one cares in the slightest when I come and go or whether I look busy when I'm there. If you like remote work, that's cool, but your complaints are with shitty offices, not something inherent to onsite vs. remote…

> I hate working from home

Why do you hate working from home? I hate working in an office and will never do it again.

> and don't want to have to rent a separate office space on my own dime.

Also, most companies will (and should) pay for remote workers to have an office outside of their house, if that's what they need. That's been my experience for the past 5 years anyways.

> your complaints are with shitty offices, not something inherent to onsite vs. remote work.

For myself and many others I've read accounts from, it's so much more than a 'real office'. It means no commute, no office drama, being able to talk with my wife in person during the day, make my own lunch... For people passionate about remote, it's more than a specialized office, but a whole different way of working.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#229

Post by spraak » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 7:02 AM UTC

deevolution wrote: post #192

UglyToad wrote: post #21

I'd be interested to know if other software developers feel their current working hours are good/positive? From feedback I've had I'm generally regarded as pretty good at my job and highly productive but my current working hours leave me completely drained, to the point I go home and collapse on the sofa, make dinner and go to bed. And that's off an 8.5 hour day. It's at the point now where it's extremely likely I'll…

I intentionally show up to work around 11 and leave around 4 or 5 precisely because I know I won't be productive for the full 8 and would prefer to use those last few hours to go climbing or workout, which helps to relieve stress and prepare me for the next day

Do you work remotely or in an office? I do about the same (9 to 3) but remotely, so the visibility of hours in an office is what I'd worry about, though I have no plans to work in an office.

Re: Productivity and the Workweek (2000)

#230

Post by spraak » Sat, Aug 24, 2019, 8:25 AM UTC

silveroriole wrote: post #123

Expez wrote: post #60

I work 60% now. Instead of having two days off each week I've opted to work 4.5h each day. I can only focus intensely for about 4h each day on coding, so this works out well. It's always been this way for me and to get to 8 hours I'd go through the logs each day (important, but not taxing at all and something better left to an intern most of the time) and attend much more meetings (low intensity but 90% of them were…

I’m aiming to get a remote job and say I’m working full time but actually do this. As you say, if you give these hours the employer gets a fantastic deal. My strength has always been the speed I can work at and I’d love to swap the time I spend looking busy with free time and a bit of Slack monitoring.

Yep, exactly what I do currently