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Information operations directed at Hong Kong

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Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#221

Post by incompatible »

diNgUrAndI wrote: post #220
incompatible wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the article says, "Twitter is blocked in PRC". Probably an own-goal in situations like this, since the army of Chinese-government loyalists can't be fully unleashed upon the world. The people of China generally seem pretty loyal to its government, but I'm unsure how much that is due to constant monitoring and systems like "social credit".

From what I saw, `constant monitoring and systems like "social credit"` won't buy loyalty. Ordinary people do that more out of patriotism, an emotion against those who spread misinformation against their country. It's sort of like someone talking shit about your hometown, and you feel the urge to defend. Not a state-sponsored thing.

Do they make no distinction between the government and their country? Perhaps their country would be even better with a different government, one that isn't constantly bringing itself into disrepute with lack of openness and bullying.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#223

Post by vmlinuz »

kweks wrote: post #184
avip wrote: post #95

My YT overlord lately decided I should watch Jackie Chan commentates about the situation in Hong-Kong [0]. I was very surprised to see the English comments almost unanimously support China. Would have expected the opposite sentiment. [edit: stupid me, the uploader is CGTN, a well-known state propoganda channel] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7rIg49I0yI

Jackie Chan has a very pro-China stance. In his autobiography, he mentions that he is proud to be Chinese, and makes several associations to Chinese culture, seemingly over Hong Kong. I found it to be a curious position, seeing as he is adored by Hong Kongers, and always seemed to identify as / with HK.

He was adored by Hong Kongers - he is now generally rather disliked and considered a sell-out in HK, for exactly this reason...

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#224

Post by seanmcdirmid »

kmonsen wrote: post #191
dang wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two site guidelines that apply to this. First, it's not ok to use HN primarily for political, ideological, or national battle. If a commenter is posting as you describe, we ask them to stop. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20727426 . But by no means does it follow that a commenter behaving that way must be a sockpuppet, astroturfer, shill, spy, foreign agent, etc. That's where the second guide…

I think what is missing in most the the China and HN discussions is that HN is not blocked by the great firewall, so it is much easier for regular people living in China to participate. They will naturally have more pro-China views. Just like residents of every country will have more positive views of that country. And when that country is criticized they will be even more defensive and reflectively pro what is criti…

Most Chinese posters to HN (pro or otherwise) either have access to a VPN or are overseas anyways. Not all people posting from within China are particularly pro China or even Chinese (maybe half?).

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#225

Post by KerrickStaley »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #90

What can technically-savvy Americans with moderate resources on hand do to help the protesters?

Do what you can to make democracy stronger at home. In the long run, what will help Hong Kong and other places that are at crossroads on the path to fully democratic rule is to have strong examples of thriving democracies that they can look to.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#226

Post by throwaway83263 »

dang wrote: post #160
woah wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even here on Hacker News, a week or so ago I saw someone being chided for “breaking the HN guidelines” by calling out a sock puppet. When I looked at the comment history of the account doing the chiding, all of its comments were on China related articles, taking a pro-China view.

There are two site guidelines that apply to this. First, it's not ok to use HN primarily for political, ideological, or national battle. If a commenter is posting as you describe, we ask them to stop. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20727426 . But by no means does it follow that a commenter behaving that way must be a sockpuppet, astroturfer, shill, spy, foreign agent, etc. That's where the second guide…

> Should we ban accounts, or allow them to be persecuted, for "pro-X" views where X is outside, say, a standard deviation of what most people here take for granted?

When those views are formed under the pressure and oppression of an increasingly influential authoritarian regime? Yes, you should. Otherwise there won't be much of a community left to protect. There is little reason to believe you can have it both ways as it isn't a level playing field. Ambivalence is one of the costs of democracy and it can't measure up to the adjusted views formed under a watchful eye.

This is why authoritarianism is on the rise all over the world. Because as people become afraid of the effects of global conflicts, economics, and politics all the establishment can offer are arguments of apathy and equivalence. Leaving the hardliners the only ones left standing with a message resembling anything close to common values.

I do believe you are writing in good faith, but I'm not sure you understand the situation. Facing undue pressure to confirm to certain views because of your background and thereby not being free to form your own _is_ what is damaging. That is what oppression is. Authoritarianism is there to achieve this result. The idea that these views are remotely equivalent is contradicted by all those facing the consequence of not wanting to conform to them and suggesting otherwise is a disservice to all parties.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#227

Post by chii »

diNgUrAndI wrote: post #217
bouncycastle wrote: post #208

One of the strangest things I seen so far was not online but on the street in Sydney, Australia. There was an "anti-democracy protest" https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/anti-hong-kong-protest-in-... It looks people who oppose Hong Kongers really exist and truly hold on to their beliefs.

Why not? Even within HK there are thousands pro-police anti-protest supporters. https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/08/17/oppose-violence-save-h... Our opinions are shaped by what media are fed into our brains. I saw my friends divided into two camps because of the different media articles they read. How do you make sure you are not biased and only read what you believe? Rad more and find the opposing articles!

You can't by just reading more. You also need to be able to read critically, and be able to spot manipulative arguments. It's actually quite hard.

Historically, journalism is meant to take the impartial stance, but lately, this ethical stance seems to no longer apply as more and more "journalism" (both online and offline) swing towards bias and clickbait.

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#228

Post by my_username_is_ »

echelon wrote: post #150
ryanchankh wrote: post #22

HongKonger here. I have some friends in China posting similar anti-protest posts on WeChat social media. It's like the news they read has a completely different story than what it's being told in legitimate new sources. The problem of fake news does become very apparent, and I hope people in China can eventually gain awareness or at least start to question the validity of their news sources.

It's been awhile since I've been over there. How easy is it for those in mainland China to get access to banned tv shows and films? I remember lots of DVD content being sold on the street, but I never came across anything that was in direct opposition to the politics of the regime. What if Netflix (or some other production company) produced a compelling show with an incredibly critical narrative about the PRC and its…

>What if Netflix (or some other production company) produced a compelling show with an incredibly critical narrative about the PRC and its leadership?

In a way, they've already done this. See "Joshua: Teenager versus Superpower". It's a documentary from the precursor to these protests, the Umbrella Revolution of 2014. They definitely don't take a pro-PRC stance on the issue.

>Would citizens in mainland China be able to access it through roundabout means?

Yes, VPNs are very common (especially among younger and more educated populations)

>Would you be able to sow the seeds of democracy? Would they even be interested?

This is more complicated. It's important to realize that there's a rational reason that many people have for supporting the CCP. On the whole, their lives have gotten significantly better over the last couple of decades. They're optimistic about the future. Attacks on the Party are attacks on the mechanism that has ushered in economic growth. To this extent, I wouldn't expect democracy to be welcomed by the average person any time soon; it's simply not a national value for them in the way that it is for the United States.

(Huge caveat: remember it's a country of over a billion people and making generalizations is necessarily going to gloss over large sub-populations that may have an entirely different world view)

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#229

Post by rqs »

dang wrote: post #160
woah wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even here on Hacker News, a week or so ago I saw someone being chided for “breaking the HN guidelines” by calling out a sock puppet. When I looked at the comment history of the account doing the chiding, all of its comments were on China related articles, taking a pro-China view.

There are two site guidelines that apply to this. First, it's not ok to use HN primarily for political, ideological, or national battle. If a commenter is posting as you describe, we ask them to stop. Example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20727426 . But by no means does it follow that a commenter behaving that way must be a sockpuppet, astroturfer, shill, spy, foreign agent, etc. That's where the second guide…

My current account was not created to post political dumps, but the atmosphere is changed upside down so much, it's really hard to just walk around it while still keep a peace of mind.

Can I ask for an account deletion and removal of all posted content? Thanks!

Re: Information operations directed at Hong Kong

#230

Post by chii »

justaguyhere wrote: post #155
mytailorisrich wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jackie Chan is entitled to his opinions. During those protests there have been rioting and ransacking of the local Parliament with some expressing views that HK was not, or should not be, China. This can genuinely trigger feelings of patriotism and outrage. The lastest protest seems to have been peaceful and to have respected the authorities' restrictions as much as possible so it may be that they have understood tha…

One thing that is super impressive about these protests (other than the sheer number of people) is the lack of looting, violence etc (not counting police violence on unarmed people). Very very impressive. Compare this with French riots etc in recent years - night and day!

I actually expect that a lot of violence and such are false flag operations, designed to taint the image of the protesters.
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