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Three Years of Misery Inside Google, the Happiest Company in Tech

wired.com

221–230 of 245 posts

Re: Three Years of Misery Inside Google, the Happiest Company in Tech

#221

I have a feeling Amazon would not tolerate this level of push back to products and business strategy (and they have the corresponding "don't care" reputation!). Google management seems to give in so much and if you are a GOOG shareholder you could have a real case here (re the Maven project). [Disclosure: I am not a GOOG shareholder]. Management has to keep the interests of the company at heart - they are legally bou…

The supposed legal requirement to do "what is best for the company" is overrated. All sorts of things can be justified as best for the company. It's not really anything that company lawyers worry about. There is company training to make sure nobody does illegal things, but it's not focused on shareholder value.

Shareholder value is more of a pervasive cultural thing. Most people and certainly everyone in charge has stock or stock options, so naturally everyone wants the stock to go up. People are also rewarded for increasing revenue. There are OKR's. And this is all justified as aligning the interests of the employees with the shareholders.

However, just because you have incentives to be pro-business doesn't prevent you from putting other considerations first when that's what's important to you. The pro-business bias is often not that strong, but it's persistent and pervasive.

It would be interesting to compare how this plays out in different companies.

Re: Three Years of Misery Inside Google, the Happiest Company in Tech

#222

I sense there are certain parallels between this article and the one recently on HN about the challenges at Yale. As an "outsider" to both Yale and Google, I admit the problems in both cases seem over-wrought, but I can't deny that the people involved feel very emotionally invested so I am still curious to see what can be learned. Both articles present insider perspectives lamenting how internal conflicts within high…

We're reading about them because they are the center of attention and they leak.

But I also have a sense that lots of things that were considered positives in the early days of the Internet have become negatives, or are simply taken for granted. For example, growth was once considered good, but now it's bad. Giving services away for free is ho-hum at best and maybe suspicious. Trying to fix Internet problems is greeted with deep suspicion based solely on who is doing it. Personalization was once good, but now it's bad. And so on.

That's inevitably going to result in a different internal culture at an Internet company than back in the days when Google's search engine first appeared on the Internet and got near-universal respect.

Re: Three Years of Misery Inside Google, the Happiest Company in Tech

#223
post #80

It's disappointing that the author didn't take the opportunity to choose language that didn't provide a distinct slant to the article. An objective tone would have been totally achievable and this would've been marked as a fairly good summation of a rather tumultuous few years for the giant.

But half-credit for the summary of Demore's views. It was surprisingly even handed about that other than saying he thought women were per se neurotic. Tonally, it is telling that some personalities had descriptions of their emotional states (from what source?) while others only had their actions and opinions described.

There's no way of knowing from the outside, but this seems relevant: "For this article, WIRED spoke with 47 current and former Google employees. Most of them requested anonymity."

Re: Three Years of Misery Inside Google, the Happiest Company in Tech

#224

lesson learned: large companies can afford to be wasteful. google can afford to fight all these ideological battles and employee spats because of their large revenue. If they weren't raking in so much dough, I doubt they would be willing to humor employees complaints on the scale cited in Wired (an entire social network for employees and supported by the company?). I'm sure similar incidents occur at other large corp…

Well, yes, and there are lots of other things Google can do because they have so much money, like their various research projects.

But remember that Google+ was a company-wide initiative intended to compete with Facebook, which is kind of a big deal. Yes, they had lots of money to throw at it, but it was for a purpose.

The internal version was originally for testing. (Also, the business version of Google+ is still a product as part of G suite.)

Re: Three Years of Misery Inside Google, the Happiest Company in Tech

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Wired even have editors? Any editor who's not incompetent beyond belief would have told Nitasha Tiku that it's not necessary to include every single detail from three years' worth of notes. In fact, the excess verbiage makes it less impactful than it could have been. A good editor would have trimmed this to one half or even one third of its current length, and it would have been better without the bloat.

Don't be ridiculous. The New Yorker regularly has articles of this length if not longer. It's ordinary longform journalism.

There's nothing wrong with something being longer if the content warrants it. Complex topics require lengthy exposition. But that requires the writer to write, to arrange and connect things into a coherent narrative. That's not what happened here. This is a thin article, padded out to novella length with repetition and irrelevancy. Again, it's not bad that the article exists. It just needed a better editor.

Re: Three Years of Misery Inside Google, the Happiest Company in Tech

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on the last sentence? I don't understand how it connects with the rest.

Desire is the root of suffering. They've got the paychecks, the perks, and even their politics are constantly validated. But they're not happy.

I hope you don't mind me riffing on this idea. I'm very much compatible with this mindset, but in the case of those pursuing social justice, and still suffering, I think there is something more.

I have a colleague who ran into a software design problem lately. He is looking at all of the apparent possible options and none of them seem like they will result in good code. He's gone on the internet to see if someone else knows the solution to the problem, with no luck. Then he's spent time to see if anyone has written any frameworks that solve this problem. While some claim to have solved the problem, a purusal of the code show the cure to be at least as bad as the the disease. What can he do?

To me, this is the same kind of problem with the same kind of result. When we first see a problem, or instinct is to go and look for a solution. We go to experts to find out what the answer is. We look at proven best practices in order to find out what we need to do. Strangely, though, the advice of the experts and the best practices often lead to situations that are at least as bad as our original problem. Why?

The reason is that we are taking an internal problem and looking for external answers. Buddha said that life is suffering. This is not to say that we should give up and have a defeatist attitude, I think. It's more that you just can't escape it: life is suffering. And code is bad. (In case you are wondering just how crazy I can be, I once gave a talk in public about how code is literally karma ;-) ).

We have to accept the suffering first (or bad code) and then start "acting skillfully". There isn't an external answer that will solve our problems. The guru on the mountain doesn't have the answer because they don't know what the question is. The carefully built system does not work for our issue, because our issue never existed when the system was built.

One of the things I've found about people pursuing social justice is that, on average, they tend to be intelligent people. The more they pursue the justice, and the more the society gives them leeway to do so, the more unhappy they get -- because they discover that their answer is not matched with the problem they are trying to solve. All of that energy has been put forward to solve the problem and they very slowly learn that they might not have the correct problem. Of course some people are always blind and they keep burning the witches, even finding new witches to burn after they run out of the first ones. However, I have found that the majority get really unhappy the farther they progress down this road.

Re: Three Years of Misery Inside Google, the Happiest Company in Tech

#227
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's right that Google doesn't generally pay competitively, but wrong in comparing to smaller startups. It's some of the larger companies (Facebook, LinkedIn, AirBnB, etc.) that Google tends to fall short of.

Interesting, I don't have that impression. levels.fyi doesn't show much disparity, for example. Where do you get this from?

They have a tendency to down-level a lot, which won't show up on levels.fyi (though if you look at the leveling by years of experience it might be extractable).

Also, from what I understand they tend to lowball much more aggressively than other top companies if you don't have any strong competing offers. Levels.fyi submitters will of course be the kinds of people who tend to shop around and get competing offers.

Re: Three Years of Misery Inside Google, the Happiest Company in Tech

#228
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender and religion are two of the issues that people have the most painful history with and the most passionate feelings about. If you make pejorative general statements about those topics, you're certain to provoke others into quick and hostile replies. That's flamebaiting. It sounds as though you believe you're simply describing facts, but that is bewilderingly far from true. To most readers here, saying things li…

Thanks. Us full-time nerds sometimes need to be reminded that people have all this emotional baggage. It is actually scientifically clear that women are childlike, both in physique (relatively large eyes and heads, shorter, weaker) and behavior (crying, emotional instability, docility etc.). Admittedly, the effects of modesty have never been studied scientifically to my knowledge, but it seems very logical that taboo…

> It is actually scientifically clear that women are childlike

Since I just asked you not to do this and explained why at length, it seems clear that you don't want to use this site as intended. I've banned the account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

Re: Three Years of Misery Inside Google, the Happiest Company in Tech

#229
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That majority of people can afford to focus on work or put in their 8 hours and go back to their families thanks to a "vocal minority" which was able to convince others in the past to fight for new rights and for what's right. Obviously some people think there's more to life than cashing a large paycheck and writing code. "Not interested in politics" is an euphemism for clueless and easy to manipulate by those that a…

>That majority of people can afford to focus on work or put in their 8 hours and go back to their families thanks to a "vocal minority" which was able to convince others in the past to fight for new rights and for what's right. That it is due to a vocal minority doesn't mean it is due to this vocal minority. Not all vocal minorities are equal, and nor should all vocal minorities be treated alike. Freedom of speech is…

I was drawing a comparison between the people inside Google fighting against e.g. censorship and military contracts and others which fought similar fights before them.

I did not say that the same vocal minority is responsible for all progress. Neither did I say that all vocal minorities are alike. All of this should be blindingly obvious to any adult, unless they're trying to twist words, be pedantic or generally argue in bad faith.

Re: Three Years of Misery Inside Google, the Happiest Company in Tech

#230
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That majority of people can afford to focus on work or put in their 8 hours and go back to their families thanks to a "vocal minority" which was able to convince others in the past to fight for new rights and for what's right. Obviously some people think there's more to life than cashing a large paycheck and writing code. "Not interested in politics" is an euphemism for clueless and easy to manipulate by those that a…

> "Not interested in politics" is an euphemism for clueless and easy to manipulate by those that are. Or a polite way of saying "I fundamentally disagree with you but don't feel like getting into a debate at work, please leave me alone." That there exists a vocal minority does not mean they are right. There exists vocal minorities calling for the dissolution of most of your most fundamental rights.

My comment was posted on an article about Google, so it follows that it's connected to the minorities inside Google which were fighting against e.g. a censored search engine in China or military contracts.

Notably absent on their list of demands was the dissolution of most of anyone's fundamental rights.

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