US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers • Hacker News Board

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#221

Post by azernik » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

atoav wrote: post #205

azernik wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were useful because they can be reconfigured on-demand to different interfaces - e.g. you can route helmsman's responsibilities to a different bridge station in case of hardware damage or human casualties.

As someone who designs ans builds modular synthesizer modules: so can mechanical interfaces if designed appropriately. Add labels on the display and use a set of generic controls and boom, you can use the same hardware for a ton of functions given the right abstractions.

Yup - just requires the hardware designers to have some knowledge of the required UIs. My main point is that the use of touchscreens was more a case of lazy/cheap design than trend-driven design.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#222

Post by bonestamp2 » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

yeutterg wrote: post #146

mhandley wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yesterday I was driving back from Scotland to England, doing 70ish, when we ran into a really heavy thunderstorm. Went from good visibility to almost zero in seconds, and the only thing I could properly see was the crash barrier alongside the lane. I found myself desperately trying to see where the road was, simultaneously trying not to get rear-ended as I slowed up, switch on the rear fog lamps and hazards, max wipe…

Rear fog lights: something more cars should have in the US for this exact situation.

Or fewer. The only time I ever see them on is when it's a clear night and I'm getting blinded by the person in front of me. That said, they are pretty useful for more than fog... They're good for flashing at people behind you who don't have their headlights on.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#223

Post by bonestamp2 » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 9:57 PM UTC

wbl wrote: post #158

acdha wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like the arguments that C programmers just need to be more careful about errors. We know that people make mistakes, get distracted, and get older. Real engineering is about designing systems which work well in actual conditions, not some unrealistic ideal case assuming perfect conditions. It’s also simply wrong: in California, I had to show use of turn signals – not anything else – and no other place I’ve dri…

I always wondered if Californians know what turn signals are.

It is by far the worst state (or province) I've lived in for lack of turn signal usage. I want to get a bumper sticker that says, "Your Turn Signal is Broken".

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#224

Post by MisterTea » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 9:57 PM UTC

Justsignedup wrote: post #198

Wait. Let me get this straight. Touchscreens, which are ideal for representing multiple user unterfaces in an intuitive way, but requiring constant visual contact are being replaced by a physical user interface that can be used by both touch, and memory? Why was touchscreen ever even a consideration for controls you're not looking at? Touchscreen is great for phones. It is awful for keyboards (see macbook pro). And i…

Well, it worked on Star Trek. Then again, that was addressed in a Voyager episode when Tom Paris designs the helm in their new runabout with old fashioned buttons and switches because he wanted to actually feel the controls much to Tuvok's dismay.

Though, on a serious note, I work in industrial automation and user interfaces, aka HMI's have been touch oriented for quite some time. It was and still is common to see graphical elements which emulate the look of physical buttons used on machinery. This was done to help operators navigate touch screens who were used to panels full of buttons, knobs, and switches.

Recently I rebuilt a machine that was half analog and half digital controls to all digital control. I first started with a full touch interface with provisions for knobs and buttons. During testing operators hated, and I mean HATED the touch screen when it came to virtual potentiometers (one operator got up and walked away saying "this screen is a fucking piece of shit"). I installed encoder knobs to emulate potentiometers and it was a success. Everyone was happy.

Some things just can't be done with a screen. You need physical things to interact with.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#225

Post by userbinator » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 9:57 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #130

qrbLPHiKpiux wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add, we're analog creatures. For a human to interface with anything digital, we need to drop what we’re doing and fully engage the touch interface. Dangerous when driving, or similar. With analog interfaces, our hands know exactly where to go and what to do just on feel, keeping attention elsewhere. I’m glad the DOD made this decision and I hope others will follow. Just because you can chip it doesn’t mean you sho…

Heh, I just had a vision of some car manufacturer making the steering controlled by a touch screen. (Is there a reason that that would already be illegal?)

Is there a reason that that would already be illegal?

The FMVSS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Motor_Vehicle_Safety_S... ) probably has some rule that states a car has to have a physical steering wheel that operates in a particular way, as well as a brake pedal to the left of the accelerator, etc., although I haven't actually looked; I do know, however, that it requires automatic transmissions to have the PRNDL shift sequence.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#226

Post by almog » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 9:59 PM UTC

"Fun" touchscreen story - I had to file a warranty claim for my not so cheap blender that had mechanical controls. The company replaced it with the newer model, that had, you guessed it - touchscreen control.

Not long after that, I was working in the kitchen, moving stuff into the blender, when a drop of water made it to the screen. The thing started at full speed throwing liquid everywhere, which worsened the situation, leaving me no way to stop it but to pull the cord out.

If I had to guess the next touchscreen everywhere will be misuse of AI, not in a malicious way, but in a really stupid one.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#227

Post by liability » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 10:03 PM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #95

liability wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manual works just fine. I just drove clear across the Trans-Canadian Highway, east to west, in a car with manual controls and it all worked great. Your eyes stay on the road because sober people can reach out and grab objects, like knobs or buttons, without looking. If the matter of defrosting confuses you then maybe you should sit down in your car for five minutes and learn how the multi-ton machine works before att…

One: I think we can discuss this without condescension for anyone who doesn't agree with you. Two: You are making a false choice: Automatic settings need not replace manual ones. Essentially what we are talking about is a spot on the dial that says "auto" which you are free to not use, much like headlight controls on higher end cars.

In practice the introduction of high-tech options reduces the availability of the manual options as manufacturers seek to reduce costs. Touch screen AC controls don't supplement manual controls, they replace them. This leaves people without irrational infatuations with tech high and dry, hence why I'm annoyed at anybody who advocates for it. If you've been in the market for a new car recently you'd see what I mean. Considering the state of the automotive industry right now, I think my comment was gentle. The suggestion that defrosting windows should be a matter delegated to a computer because it's confusing made me roll my eyes so hard, I was nearly blinded.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#228

Post by pastrami_panda » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #176

watwatinthewat wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at a Navy research center. We don't try to be profitable but take DoD clients to cover costs, trying to break even yearly. The point there is we are mission or tax funded but work for customers. The projects in my department take customer data, process/develop it in some way, and push it back out. Since we don't deal with the display at the end, there is a constant push for slides, demos, etc., from management…

From what I have read, a major source of error is lack of sleep. With 4 hours of sleep, it doesn’t matter what the UI/X is...

I don't disagree, but reading the following paragraph: "The report provides a detailed overview of the actions that led to the collision: when crew members tried to split throttle and steering control between consoles, they lost control of the ship, putting it into the path of the tanker." you're hard pressed to blame either lack of sleep or touch interfaces. It's quite obvious in this case there's an extreme lack of QA, no?

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#229

Post by SXX » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 10:15 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #110

Great. If only monitor manufacturers would do the same thing. I have a monitor with exactly 2 inputs (1 DP, 1 HDMI). What do I need to do to switch between them? 1. Press the Menu button 2. Move the option to Input Source 3. Select Input Source 4. Move from one to the other 5. Press Select Some monitor will compress 1-3 into a single Input Source option. Still, 3 presses? Why does literally NO ONE make a monitor with…

Dell U2412M has two configurable physical buttons. So I can immediately switch between VGA / DVI or DVI / DisplayPort by pressing button twice and it's super handy for my VMs with GPU passthrough. I might guess other DELL monitors have the same option.

What beyond me is that monitor firmware almost never have sanity check on input source switching. So every time I use wrong button I have to wait 2-3 seconds when it's attempting to switch to already active input.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#230

Post by Izkata » Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 10:18 PM UTC

MisterTea wrote: post #224

Justsignedup wrote: post #198

Wait. Let me get this straight. Touchscreens, which are ideal for representing multiple user unterfaces in an intuitive way, but requiring constant visual contact are being replaced by a physical user interface that can be used by both touch, and memory? Why was touchscreen ever even a consideration for controls you're not looking at? Touchscreen is great for phones. It is awful for keyboards (see macbook pro). And i…

Well, it worked on Star Trek. Then again, that was addressed in a Voyager episode when Tom Paris designs the helm in their new runabout with old fashioned buttons and switches because he wanted to actually feel the controls much to Tuvok's dismay. Though, on a serious note, I work in industrial automation and user interfaces, aka HMI's have been touch oriented for quite some time. It was and still is common to see gr…

Star Trek's bridge controls can be reconfigured, but there's a standard static configuration that doesn't change while they're in use. This is also referenced at a different point in Voyager when Tuvok is annoyed by how Tom Paris uses a nonstandard configuration. So that at least reduces the need for constant visual contact.