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Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

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Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#221

Post by laughinghan »

dirtyid wrote: post #200
miles wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Just look at how the CCP bullied international airlines about Taiwan > Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders. Three biggest US airlines bow to China Taiwan demand as deadline passes https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-44948599 Giving In to China, U…

"Of course we hope that when they operate in China they respect China's laws and rules, China's sovereignty and territorial integrity and the feelings of the Chinese people." >Three biggest US airlines bow to China Taiwan demand as deadline passes That was interim solution, if you check AA / United / Delta, they removed references of "China" for Chinese/Taiwanese cities name altogether. Also asking companies to confo…

The comment you're replying to said Air Canada, British Airways, and Lufthansa. I just tried searching for a flight to Taipei in all three of them, from California, and all of their autocompletes indeed mention China.

You are also incorrect that AA / United / Delta removed references to "China" for Chinese cities. I just tried them, Beijing, Shanghai etc all continue to mention China. Only Taipei's autocomplete does not include a country name. Again, I'm in California, so this contradicts your claim that: "Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China".

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#222

Post by cwkoss »

khc wrote: post #128
whatshisface wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that Google would act as a mole, implementing the censorship in bad faith. Why wouldn't they advance the state of the art for censorship, making it even more effective in an attempt to please the Chinese government? In fact, if China is allowing them in, the party must have some reason to believe the second one will come to pass instead of the first.

They could. Do you know that's the case? China allows a lot of foreign investments and to think that the only reason is to further their censorship is silly.

Foreign corporations have to give up a lot of control to do business in China.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#223

Post by daltonlp »

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

> Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships

"Vague" is a neutral way of putting it.

The laws are "whatever the party declares today. Also, whatever the party declares tomorrow."

The whole value proposition of doing business in China is a gamble that tomorrow's set of party strictures will be equal or better than today's.

(Spolier: they won't!)

And yes, "the party" isn't a single monolithic thing. It's shorthand for "whichever levels of authority have influence and interest in what you're doing."

And no, this isn't comparably similar how the US or any other democratic nation operates.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#224

Post by dirtyid »

inferiorhuman wrote: post #212
dirtyid wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Of course we hope that when they operate in China they respect China's laws and rules, China's sovereignty and territorial integrity and the feelings of the Chinese people." >Three biggest US airlines bow to China Taiwan demand as deadline passes That was interim solution, if you check AA / United / Delta, they removed references of "China" for Chinese/Taiwanese cities name altogether. Also asking companies to confo…

Also asking companies to conform to UN recognized sovereign states as bullying is pretty silly. Your argument appears to be "an independent body also recognizes Taiwan as part of China so airlines should do the same". Here's the problem: the United Nations did so at the behest of China and thus your argument becomes "China dictated that the United Nations recognize Taiwan as part of China and the airlines should bow…

Your argument is basically that a multilaterally decided upon recognition of nations is bad because China bad.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#225

Post by laughinghan »

dirtyid wrote: post #220
inferiorhuman wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders. That's factually incorrect making your whataboutism in this comment and one where you replied directly to my comment seem like a deliberate attempt to rationalize the Chinese censorship apparatus. https://www.newsweek.…

I was referring to the Emirates Taiwanese flag incident, and other cockpit paraphernalia drama from a couple years ago. Airlines already had existing protocol of scrubbing physical Taiwanese references when operating in China. I wasn't aware of the website change, but China compelling airline operators to adopt UN recognized countries... is somehow unreasonable or even bullying is more than a little stupid characteri…

> China started internet censorship apparatus in response to calls of ethnic violence after the XinJiang riots a decade ago

Who fucking cares? The PATRIOT Act was in response to the worst terrorist attack on US soil in US history. Three thousand people. I have friends who were in New York then. The Japanese internment camps were in response to Pearl Harbor. If an action is wrong, the impetus doesn't fucking matter, the action is still wrong.

6-4 (Tiananmen) was not ethnic violence, do we agree on that? And the Chinese government does use internet censorship to suppress discussion of it, are you going to deny that?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#226

Post by educationdata »

bduerst wrote: post #146
khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

Agreed. Some of the criticism of the censorship also shows a underlying lack of understanding how search engines works. The Chinese firewall blocks the websites, not the search engines. What was Google supposed to to? Show links to dead sites that don't load in the browser?

So you think all Google needs to do is just filtering out websites blocked by the Chinese government? Really?

You have a underlying lack of understanding how censorship works. They don't just block websites. The Chinese government wants to filtering out results they don't like on accessible websites.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#227

Post by inferiorhuman »

dirtyid wrote: post #224
inferiorhuman wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also asking companies to conform to UN recognized sovereign states as bullying is pretty silly. Your argument appears to be "an independent body also recognizes Taiwan as part of China so airlines should do the same". Here's the problem: the United Nations did so at the behest of China and thus your argument becomes "China dictated that the United Nations recognize Taiwan as part of China and the airlines should bow…

Your argument is basically that a multilaterally decided upon recognition of nations is bad because China bad.

Your argument is basically that a multilaterally decided upon recognition of nations is bad because China bad.

Which would be true if it weren't a unilateral decision. Obfuscating that through the United Nations doesn't change anything.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#228

Post by denzil_correa »

papln wrote: post #218
denzil_correa wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is important to understand why the person was fined. The person held a seminar titled "Basic Information about Islam". It was advertised with an impression of "objective information on Islam". The person described themselves as an expert in Islam doctrine too. During the seminar, the person made a judgment position without facts. The courts felt it was an intentional move meant to rile up participants and disturb…

What was the judgment without facts? The seminars cited Muslim biographies, no? Surely telling people what's in the Quran can't be considered anti-Muslim incitement, or else every imam and mosque would be guilty. > The courts felt it was an intentional move meant to rile up participants and disturb peace. Are you saying that the seminars caused anti-Muslim violence? Were there incidents reported that made the connect…

All answers to your questions are in the EHCR judgment. The court makes a distinction between child marriage and paedophilia.

https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#%7B%22itemid%22:%5B%22002-121...

> Are you saying that the seminars caused anti-Muslim violence? Were there incidents reported that made the connection?

I was pretty clear on what I said. I repeat - The courts (not me) felt it was an intentional move meant to rile up participants and disturb peace.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#229

Post by inferiorhuman »

dirtyid wrote: post #220
inferiorhuman wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders. That's factually incorrect making your whataboutism in this comment and one where you replied directly to my comment seem like a deliberate attempt to rationalize the Chinese censorship apparatus. https://www.newsweek.…

I was referring to the Emirates Taiwanese flag incident, and other cockpit paraphernalia drama from a couple years ago. Airlines already had existing protocol of scrubbing physical Taiwanese references when operating in China. I wasn't aware of the website change, but China compelling airline operators to adopt UN recognized countries... is somehow unreasonable or even bullying is more than a little stupid characteri…

China compelling airline operators to adopt UN recognized countries... is somehow unreasonable or even bullying is more than a little stupid characterization

Taiwan lost their seat at the United Nations in an attempt to appease mainland China. So, no, the United Nation isn't an objective source of naming conventions for Taiwan. And, yes, that is absolutely bullying.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#230

Post by dirtyid »

laughinghan wrote: post #221
dirtyid wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Of course we hope that when they operate in China they respect China's laws and rules, China's sovereignty and territorial integrity and the feelings of the Chinese people." >Three biggest US airlines bow to China Taiwan demand as deadline passes That was interim solution, if you check AA / United / Delta, they removed references of "China" for Chinese/Taiwanese cities name altogether. Also asking companies to confo…

The comment you're replying to said Air Canada, British Airways, and Lufthansa. I just tried searching for a flight to Taipei in all three of them, from California, and all of their autocompletes indeed mention China. You are also incorrect that AA / United / Delta removed references to "China" for Chinese cities. I just tried them, Beijing, Shanghai etc all continue to mention China. Only Taipei's autocomplete does…

I was initially referring to the Emirates Taiwanese flag pin incident, and other cockpit paraphernalia drama from a couple years ago. Airlines had existing protocol of scrubbing physical Taiwanese references when operating (i.e. landing) in China. I wasn't of airline site scrubbing Taiwan, which again, I don't see a big deal. Making countries recognize dejure sovereignty is only "bullying" if you drank too much US koolaid. The fact that US is the holdout in including China shows whose being childish. But US circumventing UN resolutions is nothing unexpected.
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