Live data from Hacker News

Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

medium.com

221–230 of 420 posts

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#221
post #164
post #75

[flagged]

I have experienced Agile being quite successful. Maybe that is an uncommon experience, but it is certainly possible.

Curious if you had success with "generally following the Agile manifesto", or some specific framework like XP, Scrum, Scaled Agile, etc.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#222
post #199

I've been developing software for over 20 years, and I still can't estimate how long something will take me when I've never done it before. This uncertainty needs to become more than just a stick to beat developers about the head and shoulders with. Most of the time the PMs understand this, but there have been many projects where they just don't get it. I have suffered great anxiety from being forced to give estimate…

No. Even bad estimates are better than no estimates. If you are having meltdowns your reputation is being tied too closely to your ability to give estimates. You must never turn estimates into a promise, always remind people they are estimates. Want to give fast estimates? Here’s how: 1) first determine the scale of the task? Is it a year, month, week or day kind of task? 2) Then, it’s just 3 of those units. The smal…

[deleted]

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#223
post #51
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly that statement is the nail on the head for me. There's a huge distinction between an output and an outcome and a huge distinction between a project plan and a road map.

> between an output and an outcome and a huge distinction between a project plan and a road map. I mention neither of those. I'm not complaining about your reply, I think it shows how those texts are (to be?) used: Just like art. You project your own experiences into it, it's more about getting you to think. So naturally different people are going to react differently and read different things into the same text. Tha…

I think you misread the part you quoted, while GP read it correctly - it's comparing outputs and outcomes, not outcomes and milestones.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#224
"Stop unfairly putting dev under a microscope and letting everyone else hide in a black box. Why aren’t we just as concerned with how strategy teams operate? Or how legacy architects are constraints in the system?"

Are other ladders in an organization not subject to performance review?! Managers? PMs?

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#226

I've been developing software for over 20 years, and I still can't estimate how long something will take me when I've never done it before. This uncertainty needs to become more than just a stick to beat developers about the head and shoulders with. Most of the time the PMs understand this, but there have been many projects where they just don't get it. I have suffered great anxiety from being forced to give estimate…

Nobody in charge cares about the estimate of an individual task. They care about progress toward program goals. With experience and skill, estimation mistakes tend to come out in the wash.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A week" is a terrible estimate for complex things that have components that you can't foresee. If you lose "a day" on some problem outside of your control (compiling starts to fail and it turns out someone checked in some code into your branch by mistake), you've basically wasted 20% of your estimate. Never say a week when there's the chance something will require a month because you didn't understand it. You need t…

"Really? X will take 'a month at least'? Why?" "I don't know why, but I don't feel comfortable guessing less because I don't fully understand X." "Okay, that's not a good way to estimate. Why don't you spend some time to come up with a plan for X and we can estimate it after that. When can I have the plan?"

You can have the plan in a week.

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im not a coder, so maybe the domain is different in a way i dont understand, but I agree with you 100%. Refueling nuclear aircraft carriers have projections start to finish, a half decade long. There are countless pre and co requisites with interrelated projects, not counting the mundane issues like material and manpower. I simply do not accept it is impossible to project a timeline for software. If someone stops you…

What you are describing are reasons why software engineering isn't Engineering.

Could you expound on this? I’m not saying I disagree, I’m just not sure which part of what he says disqualifies software engineering from being “engineering”

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#229
post #5
post #2

I agree that almost all of the orgs I encountered that were Doing Agile were pretty horrible. On the other hand, I've also been in orgs that were very successful in developing software in a way that we would recognise as being agile. We just didn't make a big deal out of it. And we didn't do standups (most of the time), or 2 week sprints, or retrospectives. We didn't even pair consistently: we split up on trivial stu…

What you are describing is exactly what Agile should be. You have a team of people who care about the craft and they slowly improve processes based on real world feedback and experience. If something doesn't work you drop it and try something else. This happens in environments where people respect each other.

Yeah, I've come to similar conclusions about Agile. It can be a great way for an already well-disciplined organization to think about the work they're doing. But many, many undisciplined organizations thought that Agile would be a catalyst for them to become disciplined. But the nitty gritty of "doing Agile" required EVEN MORE discipline than what all these organizations were already capable of exercising, so it just highlights all the frustrations everyone already has.

That does seem to be the downside of Agile. It's a collection of maybe a dozen different techniques and practices. But if one of those practices falters, whether it's the TDD, or the business side still wants a certain deadline, or you don't bother to demo at the end of a sprint, then the whole house of cards falls like dominoes..... checkmate!

Re: Dear Agile, I’m Tired of Pretending (2018)

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A week" is a terrible estimate for complex things that have components that you can't foresee. If you lose "a day" on some problem outside of your control (compiling starts to fail and it turns out someone checked in some code into your branch by mistake), you've basically wasted 20% of your estimate. Never say a week when there's the chance something will require a month because you didn't understand it. You need t…

"Really? X will take 'a month at least'? Why?" "I don't know why, but I don't feel comfortable guessing less because I don't fully understand X." "Okay, that's not a good way to estimate. Why don't you spend some time to come up with a plan for X and we can estimate it after that. When can I have the plan?"

[deleted]
Post reply on HN