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Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

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Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#221

Post by richardknop »

thebradbain wrote: post #219
richardknop wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contractor here. Well you are not obligated to accept the contract if the rate is too low. These Lyft / Uber drivers do the same thing, the rate offered by Lyft/Uber for a ride is too low so they decline and only accept if they get their preferred rate. The same as software engineer contractor does, I don't accept every contract opportunity when I am in between contracts.

Except if you decline too many within a short time period Uber punishes you, I believe.

That's why they log out of the app / turn off their phones instead of canceling rides. So they are just not available in the driver supply and then when they log back in they get surge price.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#223

Post by true_religion »

robmaister wrote: post #207
mattkrause wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50% total, or 50% marginal? There’s a world of difference between the two....

One year I made around minimum wage (paying myself just barely enough to live during the early stage of a startup) and paid I think around 25% effective just for federal. I now make a lot more than that with a W2 job as my primary source of income and my effective federal tax rate was about half of what it was that year. IMO FICA cap should be raised significantly and the rate should be reduced. There are entry-level…

That’s because with a W2 job, the employer pays taxes on the behalf of the employee.

When you are self employed then you pay both sides.

It’s pretty fair.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#224

Post by mcguire »

ummonk wrote: post #203
robmaister wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about contracting is you don't have to take the job if they aren't willing to negotiate. If no one wants to build your website for $5, then the client is either going to have to pay more, or not make a website. All of the drivers around that airport incur roughly the same costs for gas, wear and tear, rent, etc. So while you might find someone halfway across the world to build your website for $5, you won't…

Drivers are free to stop accepting rides whenever they want.

Which they're doing. En-masse. Until the fares go up.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#225

Post by jakelazaroff »

ummonk wrote: post #214
jakelazaroff wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In this case Uber offered you $x. You agreed to $x. When did they agree on $X? There's no contract between the drivers and Uber stating they they will work for a given amount. The app sets rates based on supply and demand. Uber offers them $X. The drivers decide they don't want to work for less than $Y. If demand is sufficient, Uber eventually offers them $Y. Surge pricing is basically a negotiation between company…

Cartels colluding together to artificially reduce supply in a market is often considered illegal market manipulation. That lyft is acting as a middle-man to set market-clearing prices here doesn't change that.

This was brought up elsewhere in the thread, and it's a valid concern. But consider that this might instead be a strike. Drivers want to be paid $Y, so they refuse to work until Lyft agrees.

I'm not sure where the line is between the two. But given that the market in question is the drivers' labor — and the ongoing question of whether the drivers are employees or contractors of these multi-billion dollar companies — I'm inclined to consider this "labor organizing" rather than "price fixing".

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#226

Post by [deleted] »

ummonk wrote: post #203
robmaister wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about contracting is you don't have to take the job if they aren't willing to negotiate. If no one wants to build your website for $5, then the client is either going to have to pay more, or not make a website. All of the drivers around that airport incur roughly the same costs for gas, wear and tear, rent, etc. So while you might find someone halfway across the world to build your website for $5, you won't…

Drivers are free to stop accepting rides whenever they want.

[deleted]

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#227

Post by jdmichal »

rayiner wrote: post #191
leereeves wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under the theory that Uber/Lyft employees are contractors and allowed to set prices, wouldn't coordinating ("conspiring") to do so en masse be considered price fixing? Personally I think they should be considered employees, but a pro-management federal prosecutor could make some trouble for them.

I think you can make an argument that it’s bid rigging. Uber/Lyft pricing can be viewed as an auction where the surge price is the market clearing price. Conspiring with others to not accept bids below a floor could probably be prosecuted as a bid rigging conspiracy.

I don't see how it could be bid rigging, when the drivers are not even able to bid. Short of what the article discusses, they must take whatever Uber / Lyft give them. If anything, this seems more akin to actual negotiation / refusal to work at the proposed price. Which, if they are contractors, is perfectly acceptable, no?

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#228

Post by diminoten »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #186
Shivetya wrote: post #156

I have no issue with them not being available and having rates go up. that is what they system should do. I know uber/lyft drivers that turn off the app after drops off in areas they like being so that they don't get prompted to take a nearby fare. I do find it annoying that these drivers are upset at the fees. Look, before then all you could do is work for a taxi service and they make uber and lyft look like saints…

> You are free to ride with whomever you want, and you got into the deal knowing what it was. This cuts both ways, though. Taxis still exist! If you don't want to take Uber or Lyft, you are free to take a normal taxi, use public transportation, arrange your own ride, etc.

Or use one of the dozens of local competitors that are popping up.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#229

Post by drawnwren »

thebradbain wrote: post #219
richardknop wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contractor here. Well you are not obligated to accept the contract if the rate is too low. These Lyft / Uber drivers do the same thing, the rate offered by Lyft/Uber for a ride is too low so they decline and only accept if they get their preferred rate. The same as software engineer contractor does, I don't accept every contract opportunity when I am in between contracts.

Except if you decline too many within a short time period Uber punishes you, I believe.

It seems to me that Uber's counter argument would be that they aren't obligated to offer a contract to all contractors equally. They would further argue that Uber's product is availability of drivers vs the rides themselves (remember they are only the middle men) and that they provide preference (in a binary manner) to contractors who allow them to provide consistent availability.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#230

Post by nabergh »

llamataboot wrote: post #104

Few things interesting here - One is that the workers are getting paid more per the algorithm that these companies designed to charge customers - that is, they are getting the company to facilitate higher payments but the company itself isn't being charged more! So in that case, the drivers are simply arguing that uber/lyft are artificially undervaluing their time because clearly these passengers are willing to pay 1…

I wouldn't be so convinced that passengers are willing to pay these surge prices to go home. Sure, the first time a passenger encounters this artificial surge, they're already planning on taking uber/lyft home so they'll pay it because they probably don't have another option immediately available. But the next time a passenger arrives at DCA (could be a month or two), they might remember uber/lyft is expensive when they land so they would have arranged a different option to leave the airport. Consumer reaction to prices changes may not always be immediate. These drivers are operating in their own interest in the short term but who knows if they are in the long term.
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