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Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

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Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your conclusion is absolutely correct. The explanation is that Homo economicus, the economic optimizing agent, is a leaky abstraction on top of a killer ape. In the modern environment, it's easy to forget that our brains did not actually evolve to deal with money, let alone the high-tech infrastructure of a modern corporation. They evolved to dominate other apes on the African savanna. But evolution does not document…

Lately I have the vague opinion that half-baked scientific reasoning and the tendency to come up with evolutionary just so stories is a horrible detriment to modern society. Humanity has come up with a reasonable way to interpret human behavior by human standards through the humanities. I feel content to evaluate other humans by human standards rather than speculating on how he’s actually highly adapted for the Afric…

What is the nature of that horrible detriment to society?

There are myriad ways that humans tend to make bad decisions in the course of modern life. Psychology and evolutionary biology currently provide the best answer to "why".

If you want to understand yourself well enough to be able to avoid having marketers and advertisers make your most important life choices for you, or want to raise your children to think critically about statements they hear even when it means overcoming confirmation bias, or want to think about how to help society escape detrimental Nash equilibria that lead catastrophic global warming, a deep and accurate understanding of human behavior seems to me to be clearly better than simply operating under the wildly simplistic assumption that people always behave rationally in the pursuit of well defined goals.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why wouldn't you think this? Because you’re Asian? (My dad once asked me, when he perceived I was slacking as a teenager: “Do you know how to work a sixteen hour day?” Worked fine for him—he grew up in a village in Bangladesh and sent two kids to college in the United States. Writ large, it seemed to work pretty well for Japan and Korea as well, which went from developing nations to developed nations in a few gener…

I'm genuinely not seeking to troll or start a flame war here, so I apologize profusely if I speak out of line, I'm just looking to understand the current Chinese mindset. All that working hard is to catch up to a country that pushed the envelope on a 40 hour work week, and at least made an effort to respect the right of the worker to have a life outside the office? I find the argunent/cultural value unconvincing when…

I’m not Chinese, but the sentiment is pan-Asian. You can’t build an industrial superpower from a country of rice farmers by working 40 hours a week. (Nor did the rice farmers work 40 days a week before industrialization!) Certainly, the US didn’t do it. (See: “Protestant work ethic.”) The 40-hour work week is something we adopted after our ascendency. It’s a luxury for the already rich. It’s possibly a luxury for those who face little outside competition—we will see if it survives the rest of the world catching up.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I work in finance and am sorry but you don't sound like a legit investor I don't care what I sound like to someone who develops software and pretends to be some sort of financial expert.

You can prove me wrong by actually arguing/answering the questions I had but instead you fell into Tu quoque...don't think this is how a healthy argument should be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque > someone who develops software and pretends to be some sort of financial expert Your assumption is baseless and does not help your argument. Commenting on HN does not mean someone develops software for a living. HN…

> Commenting on HN does not mean someone develops software for a living. HN is open for everyone.

You don't even understand that I can read all your comments on HN, as well as your profile, where you claim to be doing exactly that.

You're just wasting time and space with your insults and rhetoric.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#224
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't work full 12 hour continuously. You'll take numbers of breaks in between, for example lunch, snacks, napping, coffee, stroll around, exercise, gym, meditation, games, etc.

What's the difference between that and working 7-8 hours with fewer breaks? Answer: The 7-8 hour person will create better products with fewer bugs (all else being equal).

The difference is it enable you to work more (for those who want it).

> The 7-8 hour person will create better products with fewer bugs

the 12 hour person with sufficient breaks can't do that ? whats the reasoning ?

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#225

I'm beginning to suspect that the 996 schedule (and its equivalents in other cultures) aren't actually about productivity; they're about devotion. Devotion isn't something a CEO can explicitly ask for, but a 996 schedule is, so that becomes the expectation even if it actually has a neutral-to-negative impact on productivity. Richard Liu almost made this explicit when he stated that people who didn't adhere to it were…

Reminds me of Elizabeth Holmes and Sunny Balwani / Theranos / Bad Blood. Blind devotion to "the mission." "We're saving lives!" or "We're changing the world!" is pretty easy to sniff out as cultish posturing, IMHO. I blame it on the cult of personality, personally.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#226
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of a few business trips I did to Korea about 8 years ago. Loooooong hours, but lots of 'make work' projects and redoing everything because a manager didn't like or approve of some minor subset.

The redoing my partner saw was often because an experiment didn't result in what the researcher expected. Rather than try to figure out what went wrong (or why their expectations were wrong), they'd spend lots of time repeating exactly the same thing.

That's equal parts hilarious and frightening and sad at the same time.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your conclusion is absolutely correct. The explanation is that Homo economicus, the economic optimizing agent, is a leaky abstraction on top of a killer ape. In the modern environment, it's easy to forget that our brains did not actually evolve to deal with money, let alone the high-tech infrastructure of a modern corporation. They evolved to dominate other apes on the African savanna. But evolution does not document…

Lately I have the vague opinion that half-baked scientific reasoning and the tendency to come up with evolutionary just so stories is a horrible detriment to modern society. Humanity has come up with a reasonable way to interpret human behavior by human standards through the humanities. I feel content to evaluate other humans by human standards rather than speculating on how he’s actually highly adapted for the Afric…

Ironically, this comment comes across a denial of human nature.

I think it’s wrong to assume that evolutionary psychology and sociology are mutually exclusive.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#228

Jack Ma's comment on this matter is full of logical fallacy. Forcing employees to stick to the 996 schedule with no overtime pay is not equivalent to someone finding their own passion and work restless towards their own goal. He somehow mixed up these two completely different things while avoided talking about the lack of overtime pay or even basic respect for employees in many corporations. Labeling people who deman…

Well you have got all the logic correct except that there are millions upon millions looking for 'cushy' IT jobs in developing world. So when IT worker complains about being burnt they can be replaced before they even spell 'overtime'. This is true in India, China or Korea. At least these are ones I am directly aware of.

Also as much employee or employers claim that they are developing and maintaining a hugely complex systems. Most of it are age old 3-tier applications. Employers can easily replace most of the grunt workers with another lot. Average employees know this and that's why they put up with these demands. It is not like companies are lining up to hire run of the mill CRUD devs in these countries. I personally know many folks once they are laid off it would take anywhere between 3-12 month to get next job.

So what remains are few exceptional developers/engineers who can negotiate better benefits and working hours independently with companies. Companies absolutely do not feel any need to extend same level of respect and perks to everyone.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#229
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different culture. Even here in HK, people wear their overtime as a badge of honour (if you check IG before bedtime, everyone is taking pics of their nearly empty office with a timestamp). Your standing is society is elevated by being important enough that you had to stay at work until midnight and people will say "oh they're so hard working"

“everyone is taking pics of their nearly empty office” Do they all coordinate to get out of the way of each other’s photos, or how exactly does this work?

You wouldn't believe the lengths people go to in order to get the best shot for IG.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and nurses work long hours with lower pay The Longer The Shifts For Hospital Nurses, The Higher The Levels Of Burnout And Patient Dissatisfaction https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3608421 Nurses seek to reduce long hours and fatigue https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2015/02/01/nurse-... January 31, 2012 — State laws against mandatory overtime hours for nurses are effective, researchers reported in…

As a doctor you are 1 mistake away from potentially killing somebody, which can easily end up you being in jail, your license permanently removed and life ruined. And lets be honest, most doctors have killed by negligence/mistake in their lives, this is pure statistics and reality that few want to admit. After screwup everybody just hopes family/hospital will not investigate and move on. Treatment of medical staff, m…

From my second link, above:

with researchers likening the performance of someone awake for at least 17 hours to that of a drunk person.

those who worked shifts 12.5 hours or longer were three times more likely than others to make an error in patient care.

From your comment:

My advice - stay healthy, just don't go to hospital unless you have to. At the end, just drop dead.

The natives in Africa put a stop to the Ebola epidemic with a few policies to limit the spread. For starters:

1. If you got sick, they quarantined you. You were not to leave your hut. They would leave food on your doorstep. If three days of food piled up, they burned the hut to the ground without going inside to check if you were really dead or not.

2. They told their people "Don't go to the white man's hospital." Because you would show up with something fixable, like a broken leg, and die of Ebola contracted at the hospital.

They also put up road blocks to control who could come into their territory. There may be a few other things I'm not remembering.

I have a serious medical condition. I haven't seen a doctor in years. When I was seeing a doctor for it, the waiting room was always full of sick people and it was one of the more hazardous things I did. I sometimes spoke with people online who told stories that (for example) their kid with the same condition as me had picked up MRSA in their last hospital stay.

We need some better models. The current system seems inherently flawed in important ways.

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