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Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

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Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#221

Post by CivBase »

packetpirate wrote: post #195

What a load of crap... "why do schools focus on unmarketable skills?" Gee, I don't know? Maybe because we shouldn't be teaching kids that they only exist to learn about a trade so they can be another cog in the machine? Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market and every person should be given the opportunity to branch out and be diverse in their studies? Colleges give you…

In an economy that increasingly demands college degrees to survive in, pushing for a mandatory "well-rounded" education is ridiculous. All you're effectively doing is pushing people out of the education system who seriously need it.

In my experience, enforcing a "well-rounded" education also fails in practice. Most of my peers in college sought out the easiest possible courses not directly related to their degrees in order to satisfy the university requirements.

Pursuing a "well-rounded" education should be a choice. You just can't teach someone who is unwilling to learn.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#222

Post by linuxftw »

titanix2 wrote: post #6

> If schools aim to boost students’ future income by teaching job skills, why do they entrust students’ education to people so detached from the real world? Well, precisely because university does not exist to increase future income of its students. It's mostly about extending human knowledge in a formalized way called science, and producing enough doctors to let the institution continues in the future. If one aims t…

> Well, precisely because university does not exist to increase future income of its students

Then it's not worth subsidizing with government-backed loans and grants. That money would be better spent elsewhere.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#223

Post by heavenlyblue »

linuxftw wrote: post #218
fuball63 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for the movement to teach math and science differently so students garner a greater appreciation for critical thinking, but when the author suggested learning literature, poetry, and history are wastes of time, I strongly disagreed. The arts and history teach us empathy and give us context of the human condition. There is so much more to being a cog in the machine, as you said correctly. The more I see the wa…

> The arts and history teach us empathy and give us context of the human condition. I disagree. These courses should be merely electives, if offered at all. The average person doesn't really have time for this stuff, they have a long road ahead of them and they need to spend more of their formative years preparing for the hard conditions of adult life.

Yeah, and that's why you would be so gullible when you reach the working age. You'll be listening to everything you're told because you'll never know any better.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#224

Post by linuxftw »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #223
linuxftw wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The arts and history teach us empathy and give us context of the human condition. I disagree. These courses should be merely electives, if offered at all. The average person doesn't really have time for this stuff, they have a long road ahead of them and they need to spend more of their formative years preparing for the hard conditions of adult life.

Yeah, and that's why you would be so gullible when you reach the working age. You'll be listening to everything you're told because you'll never know any better.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

You know who sounds gullible to me? An 18 year old kid taking out 10's of thousands of dollars for a 'liberal arts degree.' Literal definition of gullibility IMO.

I guess at least you'll feel better about yourself knowing you know 'things' while you're working at Starbucks.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#225

Post by leetcrew »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #125
impendia wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I still failed it on a technicality (out for a job interview the day partners were assigned for the final project. Wasn't allowed to do the project alone, there were an odd number of people in the class. University professor here. Perhaps it's too late now, but I would encourage you to make a strenuous effort to get your professor in as much trouble with the administration as you can. I don't know who the "class de…

Thing I learned about the two bad professors in the school of engineering I went to was the Chair was beyond sick of their shit.

I had a similar experience when I finally made an effort to get to know the higher UPS in my car department. they often know already who the problem faculty are and are more than happy to help you deal with them. unfortunately, I think most college students are unaware of how in-department politics work and/or are just inherently unwilling to escalate things.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#226

Post by helen___keller »

navigatesol wrote: post #188
FractalParadigm wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tradespeople work more hours than anybody I know, and the unfortunate reality seems to be that they have to. Otherwise projects would take twice as long, and in the event of an emergency there could potentially be nobody to answer to it. Where I am, it's not uncommon to see an electrician or millwright working 70+ hour weeks to meet deadlines or make emergency repairs.

> Tradespeople work more hours than anybody I know, and the unfortunate reality seems to be that they have to This is much different from my experience. I see office workers (the startup crowd especially) working crazy hours, practically living at the office, and actually bragging about it. Meanwhile, most trades jobs are unionized. So you might be working long hours in an emergency, but you're getting paid time-and-…

>I see office workers (the startup crowd especially) working crazy hours, practically living at the office, and actually bragging about it.

The grass is always greener. Especially if you look outside startups (and outside software engineering), I would guess the overwhelming majority of office jobs occur around a roughly 9-5 schedule without significant overtime. There's a reason rush hour is rush hour.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#227

Post by sevensor »

linuxftw wrote: post #218
fuball63 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for the movement to teach math and science differently so students garner a greater appreciation for critical thinking, but when the author suggested learning literature, poetry, and history are wastes of time, I strongly disagreed. The arts and history teach us empathy and give us context of the human condition. There is so much more to being a cog in the machine, as you said correctly. The more I see the wa…

> The arts and history teach us empathy and give us context of the human condition. I disagree. These courses should be merely electives, if offered at all. The average person doesn't really have time for this stuff, they have a long road ahead of them and they need to spend more of their formative years preparing for the hard conditions of adult life.

You know what makes adult life harder? Being surrounded by close-minded, uneducated people who lack perspective and critical thinking skills.

I'm not here to defend useless humanities classes taught in high schools and colleges. Many of them are quite bad, but we need to raise the bar, not eliminate it.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#228

Post by commandlinefan »

twblalock wrote: post #16
justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

> Maybe more people should go into the trades - and not be funneled into higher education. We desperately need better infrastructure, more housing, tangible things. Not everyone is cut out for college. This is a common line of argument, but you will find that many tradesmen hope their children will go to college and get office jobs. The trades are hard on the body. Some trades are hazardous. An injury or medical prob…

> The trades are hard on the body

We should be working on perfecting AI so that humans don't have to do this stuff.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#229

Post by Ericson2314 »

Most jobs are stupid and pointless to society in America (the exceptions tend to make no money), so why would the education system that leads up to them be at all good?

Once UBI creates a real job market can we consider the actual transformative potential of education. Until then alienated labor makes us all stupid.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#230

Post by ohaideredevs »

linuxftw wrote: post #216
packetpirate wrote: post #195

What a load of crap... "why do schools focus on unmarketable skills?" Gee, I don't know? Maybe because we shouldn't be teaching kids that they only exist to learn about a trade so they can be another cog in the machine? Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market and every person should be given the opportunity to branch out and be diverse in their studies? Colleges give you…

> Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market That's just your opinion. Unfortunately, it's supported by the entrenched education establishment, but that doesn't make it true. The cold hard reality is, if you aren't college material, don't attend some vocational school, and don't learn a trade, you're in for a life of hard labor or burger flipping. It's going to be a complete…

I think the biggest part of the problem isn't that there are liberal arts degrees, it's that they aren't clearly labelled "these are for the rich kids who never need to work".

Same for any "business major", of course, except double major in accounting on CPA track.

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