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The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

nature.com

221–230 of 402 posts

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#221
No mention of the role of WW2 (and previous industrialized wars) in cementing science as something worth investing in?

The victors of WW2 were countries that invested heavily in science and technology, and they won because they invested heavily in science and technology. Radar, sonar, flight, automatic fire-control computers, industrialization, oil refining, steel, penicillin, synthetic rubber, codebreaking, nukes - it's very likely that without them, the winners of WW2 would be very different. And many of those innovations were made by scientists who ethnically were born into "the other side", but left Europe because of Hitler's persecution of academics and scientists. This was not lost on either the US or USSR during the Cold War - we invested heavily in science & science education in the 50s and 60s because it was a way to gain a military advantage over our adversaries.

Most of the people who fought in WW2 are dead now, the institutional memory is fading, the idea of a future war for survival is largely unthinkable, and so many people don't see the point in better understanding the natural world through rigorous observation. When you're alive, you're free to have all sorts of different opinions; when you're dead, the only fact that matters is that you're dead. The natural world doesn't care whether you're alive or dead, and selection bias is the most powerful force in science.

This is not an argument that we need another war to get people to believe in science! The biggest success of science is in building a world where people are free to not believe in it. But it's worth remembering that that world might very well be temporary, and if it disappears, I'd rather be on the side with the better models of reality.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#222

The article is dated 18 March 2019, but it asks "So: what went wrong?" and then mentions neither p-hacking nor the replication crisis in psychology. Perhaps the author has a rebuttal to those who think that questionable research practices have brought about the fall of scientific authority, but he doesn't give it here. Some of the problems lie closer to home than the content of scientific journals. Henry Gee is a sen…

It is not acceptable to publish an article on the crisis of scientific authority in 2019 and not mention the replication crisis (which is not limited to psychology). Robert P. Crease is no Galileo, he's just a preacher for a different sort of religion. And Nature's reputation deserves to take a hit as long as it continues to keep its head in the sand like this.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#223

The article is dated 18 March 2019, but it asks "So: what went wrong?" and then mentions neither p-hacking nor the replication crisis in psychology. Perhaps the author has a rebuttal to those who think that questionable research practices have brought about the fall of scientific authority, but he doesn't give it here. Some of the problems lie closer to home than the content of scientific journals. Henry Gee is a sen…

This has been going on since long, long before p-hacking and the replication crisis. And I honestly find these to be very different issues. It was common for people in the US to reject the idea of smoking as a cause of lung cancer until like the 1980s. Scientific consensus on this fact was reached in the 60s and was suspected for a while before that. Yet, it took like 40 years for the public to agree. Think about wha…

There is a lot of social baggage around tobacco smoking that has faded from living memory. I read about the [Torches of Freedom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torches_of_Freedom) advertising campaign and am amazed. Those young women, puffing their liberation in the 1930s, would turn into the old smokers of the 1970s.

I guess that they would disbelieve that smoking caused lung cancer out of loyalty to the version of feminism that was current in their youth. If so, then the reluctance to accept the authority of science about tobacco is an idiosyncratic tale, specific to a powerful, pre-existing social meaning.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#224
post #206
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So if someone understands nothing about science at all, and worships it like a religion, at least they had the good sense of picking a religion that puts food on their table, makes their planes stay in the sky and makes them healthy again when they fall sick. Religion has proven capable of welding large communities together, and that sort of shared belief system wins wars. If you ignore the fact that the doctrine i…

Then there is the fact that science was created by religious societies, Christianity in particular. Many of the fundamental discoveries came about due to religious motivations and religious principles: the world is orderly and understandable because it was created by a transcendent mind. Take away religion and we would not have science.

Well, Aristotle is still studied. Nobody pray to Zeus.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#225

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo.

Yes; and, it's weaponized for political discourse. It's as though we're in some kind of new Puritan era -- this reminds me of how John Cleese was blasted for tweeting on this very topic (3 years ago)[1]. He blasphemed.

[1] https://twitter.com/johncleese/status/683681888687538177?lan...

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#226

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

During the time of Galileo, religion was a plurality of truths, all irreconcilable, and at war with one another. There was no settled religion in any broad sense.

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is gravity a force, or is it an acceleration? Each is a fact in its own theory--the more relevant question has to do with your situation: which theory is more useful? I would call that a model, not a fact. And, as the saying goes, all models are wrong. If it's impossible to do an experiment that shows one model to be better than another in a situation, then the choice is meaningless. Both are fine.

I would like to see a tool that lists all modern scientific hypotheses and theories along with the published experiments that support or refute the theory/hypothesis. The theories should be linked to show what builds upon what. Wikipedia is probably the closest we have to this right now. As science gets more complex, we either need to create a way for people to perform this bottom-up reasoning themselves, or we need…

I would love to see this too. Unfortunately, at present I don't know if we even have an institution that everyone would trust to provide this information in an impartial way.

Also, there are still judgments involved even with this task as you describe it. How is it decided which experiments support or refute a given theory/hypothesis? How widely do we cast our net for what theories/hypotheses get included? Do we impose requirements on the experiments themselves, and if so, what?

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#228

The way in which public considers science today is much more analogous to the way the public considered religion during the time of Galileo. Think of the way people are castigated for not believing in scientific "truths". I see signs in peoples yard saying that "in this house, we believe science is real". As someone who has studied biochemistry for years, this kind of reverence for science is truly troubling. The one…

> nobody really knows what they're talking about, paradigms shift, and further study is required People so often miss this. Science is a slow, evolving and never ending process. The day a new study comes out, people want to use it as evidence that something is 'settled science'. Even things as fundamental to our knowledge of the universe like gravity have evolved over time and are still being understood at deeper and…

> People so often miss this. Science is a slow, evolving and never ending process. The day a new study comes out, people want to use it as evidence that something is 'settled science'.

Unless it is AGW. That's settled science and 99.9% of scientists agree with Al Gore even though in 1970s we were heading for Global Cooling and that was settled science.

That's the fundamental problem: how difficult is it to say "Based on the data that we currently have we are coming to a conclusion that there's X% likelihood we are heading towards a period where the global temperatures would be rise by Y degrees by year Z. Should we get different data we will re-evaluate our prognosis"

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A dogmatic belief in anything is detrimental. It takes wisdom to understand this. Many followers of science lack this. Scientific method is a great tool - for the type of questions that it is designed to deal with - and a disaster waiting to happen if used for other areas of inquiry.

> Scientific method is a great tool - for the type of questions that it is designed to deal with - and a disaster waiting to happen if used for other areas of inquiry. What other areas of inquiry would that be?

Social and political science.

Psychiatrists paved the way for the Holocaust:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23511221

Re: The rise and fall of scientific authority, and how to bring it back

#230

No mention of the role of WW2 (and previous industrialized wars) in cementing science as something worth investing in? The victors of WW2 were countries that invested heavily in science and technology, and they won because they invested heavily in science and technology. Radar, sonar, flight, automatic fire-control computers, industrialization, oil refining, steel, penicillin, synthetic rubber, codebreaking, nukes -…

> The victors of WW2 were countries that invested heavily in science and technology

So were the losers. But you are right, both sides were forced to concentrate on developing new technologies by the mutual struggle. The more capable side won.

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