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Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

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Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#221

Post by tomp »

rypskar wrote: post #217
tomp wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s why I oppose free trade. We need a legislative solution that would ban (or tax highly) products from countries/companies that skim environmental / employment standards...

Who should set the rules? If you should follow national rules in importing country, would not this mean that most European countries would have to ban products from USA?

Well, yeah, that's the idea. If Europeans want to maintain some standards, it doesn't make sense that companies can simply relocate abroad to escape enforcement.

On the other hand, if a company would want to sell to EU, it would simply certify/prove that its supply chain follows the standards!

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#222

Post by dmos62 »

mihaifm wrote: post #60
duopixel wrote: post #16

When I first moved to Europe I was struck by just how domesticated the land is. I can sleep in the open without being afraid of snakes, scorpions, spiders, wolves or bears. Even when land is "wild", the larger mammals will be rabbits, deer, wild goats and such. Excepting natural parks, hunters are the only predators. At least in Spain, a tremendous percentage of land is put at the service of mankind. The dehesas give…

What I don't understand is why there doesn't seem to be any initiative in Western Europe to reintroduce large fauna like bears and wolves. It is very convenient indeed to hike through the Alps without any fear of bears, but in this context it's almost hypocritical of Europeans to talk about conservation in Africa when their own fauna has been wiped out, without any effort to repopulate it.

Alongside what sibling comments said, I'll add that this can't really work large scale because of the road infrastructure. Even in European countries that are relatively forested, the road networks have an immense ecological impact. They segment the land into a fine mesh, which is very difficult or sometimes impossible for animals to traverse, which means that they have to live for generations isolated on a small plot of land, which entails inbreeding and many other subtler effects. You can't have a small ecologically healthy biosystem. It has to be of a certain size to be able to attain a healthy balance and that's virtually impossible in Europe, with some minor exceptions.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#223

Post by rypskar »

tomp wrote: post #221
rypskar wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who should set the rules? If you should follow national rules in importing country, would not this mean that most European countries would have to ban products from USA?

Well, yeah, that's the idea. If Europeans want to maintain some standards, it doesn't make sense that companies can simply relocate abroad to escape enforcement. On the other hand, if a company would want to sell to EU, it would simply certify/prove that its supply chain follows the standards!

Since hn don't show who upvote you, I'll add a small comment that I hope EU and others would dare to do more with this than they do now

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#224

Post by oarsinsync »

reaperducer wrote: post #203
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dualit Classic. A very expensive toaster that's been made by hand, for ages, in the UK. Repairable too! https://www.dualit.com/products/classic

Ossim. When I live in the UK I'll pick one up. Until then, the point stands: Made in China is all that is available to me.

Amazon.com has them in stock

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#225

Post by tomp »

EGreg wrote: post #207
SVResponsible wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI just makes landlords richer. Why not have the country simply pick up the carbon tax for individuals?

What does that even mean? Go into depth on both of your points.

This is an amazig article that discusses that.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/06/06/against-tulip-subsidie...

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#226

Post by tomp »

imtringued wrote: post #218
lutorm wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter how high the price on CO2 is if you can't capture 1 unit of CO2 without emitting >1 unit. There's no guarantee that such a technology exists.

>There's no guarantee that such a technology exists. I've recently started hearing phrases like that despite technology X existing. What has changed recently that people have become so ignorant? Have you ever thought of where all those fossil fuels came from? They had to be captured by plants without emitting more CO2 than they captured. The bigger problem with industrial CO2 capturing processes is that they merely c…

This doesn’t make sense. Plants captures CO2 by expending more (solar) energy than is released by burning coal/oil and releasing that CO2. So if we manage to produce enough clean energy to start turning CO2 into oil, we might as well stop burning oil altogether and just use that clean energy instead!

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#227

Post by tim333 »

75dvtwin wrote: post #140

I am yet to see an example of corruption-free model converting environment impact reduction (or increase) in to monetary credit or (debit). ".. To offset their own carbon emissions, European companies have been overpaying China to incinerate a powerful greenhouse gas known as hfc 23. And in a bizarre twist, those payments have spurred the manufacture of a harmful refrigerant that is being smuggled into the U.S. and u…

Still the perfect is the enemy of the good and all that. It's probably better to have a flawed but functional mechanism than nothing. I'll give you that hfc 23 story is bad.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#228

Post by EGreg »

michaelt wrote: post #214
EGreg wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that even mean? Go into depth on both of your points.

If 10 families are in price competition for 9 houses* the price will be $1 more than the poorest family can afford. Which will probably leave the second-poorest family struggling. If (in your justified pity for the poorest and second-poorest) you give everyone a free $1000, the equilibrium price will simply rise by $1000 leaving the same families struggling and homeless. This is the model armchair economists use to e…

Bat Area employees pay so much because of gentrification, inequality and concentration of wealth.

A UBI is simply a progressive tax to counteract the usual economic forces that let the richer get richer: they can afford bigger switching costs, they can afford to take more risks, they have amassed more patents and technology like AI, loyal engineers and so on.

UBI can be adjusted to simply redistribute the money in the system back so everyone has a floor, and can also afford to take risks without worrying about access to the expectations and necessities of modern life.

Sure inflation happens anyway. Everyone already eats. Giving everyone food stamps isn’t gonna change that.

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#229

Post by dang »

rebornshellfish wrote: post #186
porpoisely wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the "externalities" got shifted from indonesia to somewhere else. How about this, if indonesia told norway to go to hell, cut down their forests, got rich and then in 20 years paid Laos $1 billion to spare their forests. Would we celebrate indonesia as great environmentalists? Of course not. We'd call them hypocrites, especially when the deforestation just moved to cambodia instead. At the end of the day, this ex…

>Tax all of europe X amount of money and shift that wealth to indonesia and ASEAN to achieve an equal living standard? You're literally the most evil person I have ever seen on the internet. High IQ Europeans, who have secular values, who have the greatest respect for human rights, who invest a lot in their children, and who already suffer under an excessive regulatory/tax burden, do not owe the rest of the world any…

We've banned this account. Obviously, if you've read the guidelines, you can't comment on HN like this.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Indonesia reports reduced deforestation, triggering carbon payment from Norway

#230

Post by vkou »

BurningFrog wrote: post #209
vkou wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have to consent. That's the whole point of tariffs. They can be imposed unilaterally (As we have recently seen with the US - China shoving contest. Which, of course, had nothing to do with the environment, or carbon emissions, and everything to do with political optics.)

The US can impose tariffs on trade with the US . If they wanted to impose it on China's oil trade with Saudi or Russia, it would have to be done militarily. And that still leaves the question how to impose a carbon tax on China's domestic coal and oil.

The purpose of carbon tarrifs is not to punish other countries.

The purpose of carbon tarrifs is to make foreign dirty-energy-intensive products less competitive, compared to less dirty-energy-intensive ones.

Because we already have a way of making domestic dirty-energy-intensive products less competitive. It works great. It's called a domestic carbon tax.

They remove the immediate complaint of "If we impose a local carbon tax on energy, foreign imports will outcompete us, because they don't have to pay it."

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