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Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#221

Post by hippich »

I used to be all-in UBI supporter. To my "hacker" mind it appeared like a wonderful hack around issues society is facing. But lately, as I saw our parents retire, I was thinking about what really keep people happy - and as soon as basics are covered, it appears that "being useful" is what jobs are really about.

UBI, as a result, may lock people forever in a jobless situation. UBI will not provide enough capital to bootstrap anything, it might disconnect you from people doing something. This can only increase the resentment between employed and unemployed classes. Granted, some will find themselves doing what they wanted to do their whole life (non-profitable) and couldn't because they had to put food on the table. But is this the case for everyone? I am afraid the rest will risk being marked "not useful" for life, and that doesn't sound like something that makes one happy...

Sorry, it is just my random philosophical thoughts and no real answers or pieces of advice here...

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#222

Post by dragonwriter »

baronswindle wrote: post #119
blakejustblake wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the rise of gig-economy type work has dirtied the employment data pool? If you're out of work and looking for a employment, yet you're still scraping by a few bucks every week due to Uber or Lyft or something similar, and you're a part of a significant percentage of people doing the same then unemployment numbers probably aren't as pretty as some would like us to believe.

U6 unemployment numbers include workers who are employed part time but would prefer to be full time, and U6 is near all time lows.

So, an Uber drive that's in the app available for calls 35+ hours a week but gets few calls, are they part-time or full-time?

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#223

Post by dahfizz »

ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

> It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not.

The problem is that I've heard many proponents of UBI sell it as exactly that, a way for people to get better jobs. And I can't really blame them, framing UBI as a way to make unemployment more comfortable is not going to be very successfully politically.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#224

Post by benj111 »

JAlexoid wrote: post #214
savanaly wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we are efficient enough in our use of land, the demand relative to the supply will shrink enough that it's no longer scarce. I suppose lots of people enjoy owning their own land-- large tracts of it in fact, and not sharing it with anyone. That's a little tougher to conceptualize as post-scarcity as there's a limit to making land enjoyment more efficient with advanced technology. But in a world where other resourc…

The idea of land ownership is as mythical as Thor's hammer. You don't own land - you own a right to do certain things on that land to the exclusion of others. Only sovereignty gives actual ownership of land - transferring it to another jurisdiction, setting up your own laws, destroying said land and doing whatever the fuck one would do when one is literally "law onto oneself". Also - money is no longer representative…

How is land ownership different from anything else, say like the Thors hammer I bought on ebay?

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#225

Post by btbuildem »

rixrax wrote: post #89
ThomPete wrote: post #76

It's a general misunderstanding that Basic Income is some sort of job program, it's not. It's a job replacement program for a society where there aren't enough jobs for everyone because technology have taken over most. Basic Income should provide fundamental living cost support in a society that has no jobs so there is no "but" in there. Edit: Keep in mind we already have Basic Income it's just conditional. UBI is di…

And while doing that, cut the bureaucracy and stigma of having to continuously apply for welfare, food stamps etc. Not that this would offsets the cost of basic income. If we picture a dystopian future where due to the rise of automation, increases in population, lack of education and ability, ~90% of people cannot realistically work in a productive jobs, I think it's a good time to experiment now what and how to kee…

Usually war served to reduce that surplus, but with automation in the military as well, this is uncharted territory.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#226

Post by dragonwriter »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #215
dragonwriter wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Land in the non-coastal western US or most of Canada or Australia is theoretically scarce too, but not so much in practice. If the acquisition cost is >0, it is scarce in practice as well as theory.

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice but in practice there is." Land in these places can be something like $500/acre. That's not zero, but compared to the land prices people are more familiar with, it's as close as makes no difference in practice.

> Land in these places can be something like $500/acre. That's not zero

...and thus economically scarce...

> but compared to the land prices people are more familiar with, it's as close as makes no difference in practice.

It's very cheap. But very cheap things are still scarce. Something that isn't scarce has no price and everyone (even the poorest of the poor) who wants any quantity of it will have as much as they want without sacrificing anything.

Land in the places you describe is cheap. The price may even seem negligible to people in the upper middle class in the developed world. It's very much still scarce.

The difference between scarce and not scarce is not a matter of price, it's a fundamental difference of kind.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#227

Post by fucking_tragedy »

dawhizkid wrote: post #123

As someone who wants to remain in the workforce, the absolute most frustrating thing about taking a break between jobs or wanting to bootstrap a company or start something new is not the lack of income during that time but that my healthcare in the US is tied to having a job. Yes, I can buy individual insurance, but moving off and on new plans is incredibly time consuming, and if you have a certain prescription that…

> Yes, I can buy individual insurance, but moving off and on new plans is incredibly time consuming, and if you have a certain prescription that you are on or have something that is covered by an employer plan but may not be covered by an individual on then it's highly risky to leave.

As someone who spent time doing contract work, and working on my own business, this is what made me seek out work as an employee.

I cannot, and will not, play the game of paying for individual insurance. Employers can negotiate for better rates and better plans than you, as an individual, will ever be able to.

If you have a health condition or injury, the chances of which will increase each day that you're alive, the individual health insurance market is a disaster.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#228

Post by Qwertystop »

hippich wrote: post #221

I used to be all-in UBI supporter. To my "hacker" mind it appeared like a wonderful hack around issues society is facing. But lately, as I saw our parents retire, I was thinking about what really keep people happy - and as soon as basics are covered, it appears that "being useful" is what jobs are really about. UBI, as a result, may lock people forever in a jobless situation. UBI will not provide enough capital to bo…

UBI doesn't prevent you from looking for work on top of it - that's what "unconditional" means here.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#229

Post by hippich »

Qwertystop wrote: post #228
hippich wrote: post #221

I used to be all-in UBI supporter. To my "hacker" mind it appeared like a wonderful hack around issues society is facing. But lately, as I saw our parents retire, I was thinking about what really keep people happy - and as soon as basics are covered, it appears that "being useful" is what jobs are really about. UBI, as a result, may lock people forever in a jobless situation. UBI will not provide enough capital to bo…

UBI doesn't prevent you from looking for work on top of it - that's what "unconditional" means here.

Indeed. People who want to achieve something - they will be quite happy about it. But seeing retired parents not knowing what to do about their lives (because they dedicated whole life to getting their children ahead and working their ass off to do that, and now they done with it - what next?) - suggests that there is more to it, than just covering basic needs.

Re: Basic income in Finland did not lead to finding work, researchers said

#230

Post by romwell »

hippich wrote: post #221

I used to be all-in UBI supporter. To my "hacker" mind it appeared like a wonderful hack around issues society is facing. But lately, as I saw our parents retire, I was thinking about what really keep people happy - and as soon as basics are covered, it appears that "being useful" is what jobs are really about. UBI, as a result, may lock people forever in a jobless situation. UBI will not provide enough capital to bo…

Counterpoint: receiving UBI would not be any more of a "not useful" mark than simply being unemployed.

Technically, we all are receiving a UBI of $0 right now. The idea is just to increase that amount to cover rent and food.

If everyone's getting it, there is no stigma.

(Same disclaimer on random philosophical thoughts and no real answers)

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