US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages • Hacker News Board

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#221

Post by Spoom » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

whorleater wrote: post #112

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #87

I hope not too off topic, but I'm puzzled by shutdowns. Every other country I can think of has a system where if the finance is not agreed, the previous budget just continues. The budget sets the yearly amount for each department and it runs on until another budget changes how much everyone gets. Sometimes a new department gets created, sometimes something is abolished. Everyone gets their salary and services run on.…

The recent interpretations of the anti-deficiency act ( https://www.gao.gov/legal/appropriations-law-decisions/resou... ) means that the government can be shut down unless functions endanger "life" or "property". Congress could amend the anti-deficiency act to fund the government at previous levels, but that would remove the shutdown process as a political cudgel.

> that would remove the shutdown process as a political cudgel

Which, IMHO, should absolutely be done.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#222

Post by SamBam » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

jazzyk wrote: post #107

_djo_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the contractors will be paid, as I understand it, only permanent federal employees.

Yes, that comes with the territory (contract cancellations or delayed/non payments are risks associated with running any business).

In general a long-term contract with the government is an almost-guaranteed deal, except in very rare cases like these. It's completely reasonable for contractors to have arranged their finances expecting to be working.

(Obviously no job is guaranteed, but most Americans still only have enough cushion for a couple months.)

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#223

Post by atonse » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

jazzyk wrote: post #72

rkochman wrote: post #7

I’m glad to see this. The shutdown has been too “business as usual” for most Americans, while others are expected to work without pay, which is ridiculous.

Strictly speaking, their pay is delayed - they will be paid for all the work, eventually. Still, regular employees should not be going through this, though.

Doesn't matter if they're living paycheck to paycheck.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#224

Post by flyingpenguin » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

usaphp wrote: post #69

As a non US citizen, I don’t understand what’s that shutdown even about, seems like absurd thing to do. Is it all because of Trump or he is not the only one to blame? I remember there was some shutdown when Obama was there too? Or am I mistaken? Edit: downvoted for asking a question?

https://history.house.gov/Historical-Highlights/1851-1900/18...

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#225

Post by chewbacha » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #87

I hope not too off topic, but I'm puzzled by shutdowns. Every other country I can think of has a system where if the finance is not agreed, the previous budget just continues. The budget sets the yearly amount for each department and it runs on until another budget changes how much everyone gets. Sometimes a new department gets created, sometimes something is abolished. Everyone gets their salary and services run on.…

I believe (and I hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong) but the Anti-Deficiency act [0] is what is causing most of the issues. It specifically forbades going over the budget allocated by congress and has ramifications if it does. In general, the shutdown affects mostly non-essential federal workers, but part of that is their pay, so the offices that pay the necessary workers are not issuing checks...

But, let's be clear, this isn't the government running out of money, it's the government not agreeing on how to spend the money it has.

It's actually all bureaucracy and generally the budget bills are mostly simple continuances of the former... however, in recent years, this has become a game of chicken with legislatures. They are using federal pay as a pawn in negotiations to get their pet projects passed.

In this particular case, instead of going the normal legislative route of passing a bill to allocate funds for the "wall" trump has both inflicted harm on federal workers and DACA recipients in order to coerce the legislative body to fund 5.7 billion in the wall. How did he do this? He first rescinded protections for a group of people and then vetoed a normal budget bill.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antideficiency_Act

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#226

Post by Consultant32452 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

resters wrote: post #93

At the risk of introducing a political topic into this supposedly apolitical subject, why shouldn't any president simply make demands and then shut down the government until his/her political opponents cave? Seemingly this strategy will not work ever again for either party if proper steps are taken. It seems like a terrible abuse of executive power.

The specific power being used here is the presidential veto, which is an important power of the president which is checked by the legislature being able to overrule a veto if they get enough votes.

In more calm times they could just pass legislation that would end the concept of government shut downs by funding at the previous rate in the event of a failure to agree to new funding levels.

Neither side wants that because it's a good political cudgel.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#227

Post by pjc50 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

Brakenshire wrote: post #115

arethuza wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awfully nice of our US friends to try and make and feel better about our current bit of unpleasantness with our government here in the UK, but you really didn't need to bother....

Could a situation like this happen in the UK, do you think? Not voting through a budget would normally be a confidence issue, which would bring about the fall of the government, could we have a situation where that went on for a period of time without causing a new election?

Arguably since the Lib Dems detached confidence votes from normal business the constitution has been broken; previously the "May Deal" would have been a confidence vote and its failure would have collapsed the government.

While I don't think we'll have budget issues we're very likely to go the other way: use of emergency powers to suspend Parliamentary democracy. I believe some of the Tory party are already calling for this.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#228

Post by yardie » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

mbostleman wrote: post #136

mayneack wrote: post #11

Federal workers should start striking. I gather that in most cases they're explicitly prevented from striking, but I think there's a good chance that it's too unpopular to actually punish them. Also yesterday some leadership of the flight attendants union called for a general strike until it was over: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/could-an-unlikely-av...

I don't know about striking per se. But I have been somewhat confused about why all these workers are reporting to work when they're not being paid. If it's purely out of good will and dedication for their jobs, I appreciate that, but I wonder if it doesn't just serve to mask the problem. Employment at will means that every day is a new agreement - I work then you pay. If one side of that declines, then so should the…

The government has effectively outlawed it. They could strike but then the strike would be illegal. It's never been tested in court but with the rush of federal appointments (all happening while we've been watching the circus) of conservative judges it doesn't bode well for worker rights.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#229

Post by te_chris » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

Brakenshire wrote: post #115

arethuza wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awfully nice of our US friends to try and make and feel better about our current bit of unpleasantness with our government here in the UK, but you really didn't need to bother....

Could a situation like this happen in the UK, do you think? Not voting through a budget would normally be a confidence issue, which would bring about the fall of the government, could we have a situation where that went on for a period of time without causing a new election?

We barely have a government now but things seem to carry on - ish.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#230

Post by morpheuskafka » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #141

_djo_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the contractors will be paid, as I understand it, only permanent federal employees.

Contractors are not working now though they were sent home. There are 3 buckets of people: 1) Employees forced to work. Promised backpay by a resolution that was passed. 2) Employees not allowed to work. Promised backpay by a resolution. "Free vacation" 3) Contractors not allowed to work. Will not get backpay, money lost is "gone" forever.

Wouldn't 13A guarantee (1) getting paid regardless of resolution?