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Trying to ‘Save’ the Rural Economy

nytimes.com

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Re: Trying to ‘Save’ the Rural Economy

#221

Post by jacob019 »

mikestew wrote: post #182
nimbius wrote: post #99

speaking as someone who works in a small town in the midwest as an auto mechanic, the people that shot themselves in the foot with this idea were the very ones who proposed it. I got 5 months of free online Python classes from the local government. This was part of some larger state plan to 'revitalize' us as a 'web 2.0' something or other for the 'silicon valley' of the midwest. The whole thing read like snake oil b…

Without really needing to know, I'm guessing either Indiana (my home state) or North Carolina (lived there three years). I say that only because we'd never go back to NC because of differences in opinion and politics, and never, ever go back to IN because it appears to have gone even more ( ahem ) divergent from my opinions since we moved out twenty years ago. The things I heard come out of the mouths of clients when…

Most hoosiers are good people. Indianapolis is blue. We don't have these draconian rules.

Re: Trying to ‘Save’ the Rural Economy

#222

Post by Rotten194 »

chrisco255 wrote: post #214
nimbius wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. And its not like im here to bash conservatives, its just looking at all these super tech companies like google and apple, its hard to imagine Tim Cook seriously considering locating his business in a state where his ER surgeon could refuse service to him because he is gay. most of our effort to get into the fast lane of "silicon valley" has been a thinly-veiled attempt at doing something, anything, to reduce…

You're just going overboard with spurious trash talk of other states. No ER surgeon is turning down ANY patient ANYWHERE in the U.S.

In one case, a 39-year old teacher allegedly died after not getting appropriate medical care due to her sexual orientation.9 According to a lawsuit filed by her brother, the teacher’s medical condition was not taken seriously by the EMTs who responded to her 911 call after they “‘became immediately aware’” she was a lesbian. She was abandoned for over an hour after being admitted to the hospital – in violation of protocol – and while unattended, she fell into a coma.10 She died several days later.1

https://nwlc.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/lgbt_refusals_fa...

Re: Trying to ‘Save’ the Rural Economy

#223

Post by tomjen3 »

nimbius wrote: post #99

speaking as someone who works in a small town in the midwest as an auto mechanic, the people that shot themselves in the foot with this idea were the very ones who proposed it. I got 5 months of free online Python classes from the local government. This was part of some larger state plan to 'revitalize' us as a 'web 2.0' something or other for the 'silicon valley' of the midwest. The whole thing read like snake oil b…

Jesus. What state is that? waiting periods for birth control? No blacks? WTF, is this 1920?

Re: Trying to ‘Save’ the Rural Economy

#224

Post by tomjen3 »

pjc50 wrote: post #150
nimbius wrote: post #99

speaking as someone who works in a small town in the midwest as an auto mechanic, the people that shot themselves in the foot with this idea were the very ones who proposed it. I got 5 months of free online Python classes from the local government. This was part of some larger state plan to 'revitalize' us as a 'web 2.0' something or other for the 'silicon valley' of the midwest. The whole thing read like snake oil b…

It sounds like they're committed to the values that are important to them, regardless of the huge disadvantages. What's the way to change this?

The last time it came to that, the US had a civil war.

I am not advocating it in this case, but ultimately you can only have so divergent ideas about life and rights before it comes down to who has the biggest (or the most) effective guns.

Re: Trying to ‘Save’ the Rural Economy

#225

Post by mjsaah »

krapp wrote: post #195
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Putting them in larger cities for jobs they aren't qualified and wouldn't be hired for probably isn't the solution. If your goal is to make rural people (historically a very hard group for governments to control, everywhere, not just in the US) more dependent on and controllable by the state then it works great. (Yes, I know I'm just stirring the pot by saying this)

All a man needs is a horse and a gun and he can rule the world, right? I know many rural Americans like to imagine they're still living on the lawless frontier uncorrupted by civilization and Federalism, but.... it's not actually true that they're less dependent on the state than "city folk." Hell, in many cases rural areas are more dependent on the state. And ironically, it's that pastoral, romantic delusion of the…

> it's not actually true that they're less dependent on the state than "city folk." Hell, in many cases rural areas are more dependent on the state.

I'd like to see you back up this claim, but either way dependence on "the state" isn't really what matters.

What matters is the interdependence between the two locales. Cities are almost entirely dependent on rural areas for their food. Rural areas could continue to exist without cities; the reverse is not true.

Cities are also more fragile than rural areas. Say something catastrophic were to happen to some region of the US, something that wiped out communications infrastructure, electricity generation, supply routes (roads, rail), etc. The cities in this region would be foodless within a few days. Depending on the city, there would be either no running water or dirty running water. Even if martial law were quickly instituted, violence and starvation would result.

Contrast this to the rural areas. Food would certainly be an issue, but it is more likely that the population is either (a) near agricultural infrastructure or (b) prepared to fish/hunt/forage. It helps that there are less mouths to feed.

Furthermore, most people are on wells and/or septic tanks, which barring damage gives them a much longer timeline before water/sanitation becomes an issue. Again, it helps that there is a lower density of people needing drinking water and sanitation.

I guess my ultimate point is that strategically, it is the rural areas holding the cards. Would they be poorer without the cities? Absolutely. Could they survive? They did for generations.

Re: Trying to ‘Save’ the Rural Economy

#226

Post by mikestew »

jacob019 wrote: post #221
mikestew wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without really needing to know, I'm guessing either Indiana (my home state) or North Carolina (lived there three years). I say that only because we'd never go back to NC because of differences in opinion and politics, and never, ever go back to IN because it appears to have gone even more ( ahem ) divergent from my opinions since we moved out twenty years ago. The things I heard come out of the mouths of clients when…

Most hoosiers are good people. Indianapolis is blue. We don't have these draconian rules.

Twenty years ago, right before we moved out, Marion County (i. e., Indianapolis) prosecutor Stephen Goldsmith decide multiple black young men in a car was probable cause for a stop. It stands out in my mind because I remember thinking, “boy, am I glad to be getting the hell out of here.” Perhaps my information is a bit outdated, but it was within the lifetime of most reading this.

I lived in that state for 35 years. You’ll be hard-pressed to convince me that Elwood (as one example) welcomes their new dark-skinned neighbors (should they dare move there) with open arms in less than a generation since I last did business there. Which is one of many reasons I have no desire to bring my high-tech skills back home.

Re: Trying to ‘Save’ the Rural Economy

#227

Post by krapp »

mjsaah wrote: post #225
krapp wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All a man needs is a horse and a gun and he can rule the world, right? I know many rural Americans like to imagine they're still living on the lawless frontier uncorrupted by civilization and Federalism, but.... it's not actually true that they're less dependent on the state than "city folk." Hell, in many cases rural areas are more dependent on the state. And ironically, it's that pastoral, romantic delusion of the…

> it's not actually true that they're less dependent on the state than "city folk." Hell, in many cases rural areas are more dependent on the state. I'd like to see you back up this claim, but either way dependence on "the state" isn't really what matters. What matters is the interdependence between the two locales. Cities are almost entirely dependent on rural areas for their food. Rural areas could continue to exis…

There are very few rural areas in the US in which most people don't get their food from the supermarket, water from utilities and power from a power company, just like everyone in a city. They didn't build their homes from trees they felled by hand, they don't grow their own food, or sew their own clothes.

As far as hunting and fishing goes, few people living in rural areas would be capable of living entirely off the land for an extended period of time, so the premise that they would be able to survive a disaster more or less unscathed while the city dwellers starve is just really not true, at least not as true as Americans would like to believe.

One problem rural areas do have is lack of disaster preparedness funds. I live in Texas, and I've seen what happens when disasters hit rural areas. The same people who complain about Washington and city dwellers wind up in tent cities being tended to by the Red Cross and FEMA.

See how well agricultural communities do without farm subsidies, housing loans or food stamps. Without the state keeping them alive, a lot of them would simply die out.

And this is my ultimate point - most Americans who live in rural areas are little less domesticated than their urban counterparts.

Re: Trying to ‘Save’ the Rural Economy

#228

Post by Terr_ »

> For the last quarter century the story of these places has been one of relentless economic decline. [...] The election of Donald Trump, powered in no small degree by rural voters

Counterpoint: "Trump Voters Driven by Fear of Losing Status, Not Economic Anxiety, Study Finds" [0]

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/24/us/politics/trump-economi...

Re: Trying to ‘Save’ the Rural Economy

#229

Post by someguydave »

nimbius wrote: post #99

speaking as someone who works in a small town in the midwest as an auto mechanic, the people that shot themselves in the foot with this idea were the very ones who proposed it. I got 5 months of free online Python classes from the local government. This was part of some larger state plan to 'revitalize' us as a 'web 2.0' something or other for the 'silicon valley' of the midwest. The whole thing read like snake oil b…

Non-costal people are bad and should be collectively punished.

Re: Trying to ‘Save’ the Rural Economy

#230

Post by chrisco255 »

Rotten194 wrote: post #222
chrisco255 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're just going overboard with spurious trash talk of other states. No ER surgeon is turning down ANY patient ANYWHERE in the U.S.

In one case, a 39-year old teacher allegedly died after not getting appropriate medical care due to her sexual orientation.9 According to a lawsuit filed by her brother, the teacher’s medical condition was not taken seriously by the EMTs who responded to her 911 call after they “‘became immediately aware’” she was a lesbian. She was abandoned for over an hour after being admitted to the hospital – in violation of pro…

That's a great narrative for a lawsuit, but I'm skeptical it's true. It's possible they were negligent (it happens to straight people too wouldn't you know it!), but it's also equally possible they were making every effort and they're still getting sued because our system has enormous financial rewards available to those who win successful lawsuits, even if they are disproportionate in many cases.

At any rate, no, there is not some systemic bias against any class of people in our medical system. ERs take care of anyone, medical insurance or not. Our medical professionals are highly trained, EMTs, paramedics, firefighters, nurses and doctors are by and large good at what they do. The existence of exceptions does not discount the rule.

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