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Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

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Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other point is that with a government, people have the opportunity to vote management out. Not so much with Comcast.

But you don't have the opportunity to vote with your pocketbook at all once it becomes a government service. Why not use the power of government to create a competitive market that would allow new ISPs to enter the market? Like making a modest investment in common conduits into neighborhoods that all ISPs can wire through?

How can you vote with your wallet against a monopoly? Just go without? That's not a choice, it's coercion.

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you don't have the opportunity to vote with your pocketbook at all once it becomes a government service. Why not use the power of government to create a competitive market that would allow new ISPs to enter the market? Like making a modest investment in common conduits into neighborhoods that all ISPs can wire through?

How can you vote with your wallet against a monopoly? Just go without? That's not a choice, it's coercion.

[deleted]

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#223

I hate Comcast with a passion and have always fantasized about living in a progressive municipality that provides fiber to the home. However, a few years ago I bought a home and it’s only been over the last 6 months or so I’ve realized how horribly corrupt and mismanaged small city governments can be. We’re being sucked dry by our mayor who hired her cousin as city manager for an exorbitant compensation package. They…

"为人民服务"已变成一句空话。

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#224
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In those countries with better infrastructure there isn't as strong of a government-is-always-awful ideology as we have here. Our "conservative" politicians thinks of their job as destroying government. So we get bad government. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Except infrastructure is awful in solidly blue states as well as red states. What "conservative politicians" are to blame for the NYC subway falling apart? I think you've got the causation backward. There's a bigger "market" for anti-government rhetoric in the U.S. than in Europe because the governmental units closest to the people here are so awful.

The NYC subway is a poor example, since its funding is dependant on the conservative (but not for much longer) state government.

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there are risks, but at the very least you and your neighbors can a) identify corruption or mismanagement and b) work to vote corrupt leadership out. Much harder to do with Comcast. (And for the record, I'm all for real competition in these markets. Let Comcast and the municipality battle it out. May the best provider win.)

How badly do you want to be a taxpayer in a city with a government that’s determined to spend out of the bottomless public purse to compete with Comcast?

It's the other way around, actually. Private ISPs cannot survive without statutes that prevent the establishment of municipal ISPs. Like all utilities, Internet traffic has a very low per-unit cost, making it unviable to turn a meaningful profit without engaging in predatory business practices.

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#226

I hate Comcast with a passion and have always fantasized about living in a progressive municipality that provides fiber to the home. However, a few years ago I bought a home and it’s only been over the last 6 months or so I’ve realized how horribly corrupt and mismanaged small city governments can be. We’re being sucked dry by our mayor who hired her cousin as city manager for an exorbitant compensation package. They…

Keep in mind, Charlemont has no mayor and most issues, including this one, are decided by open town meeting, which is literally direct democracy where residents show up and everyone gets one vote. No one has the ability to hire someone for an exorbitant salary without literal approval by a direct vote of all residents who show up at a meeting. This isn't to say open town meetings are perfect. There is a definite skew…

>Boston residents literally had no voice in the city's negotiations with Verizon about FiOS and didn't even hear about it until they jointly announced their deal.

Boston residents got a taste of what it's like for the rest of the state when the Boston/Cambridge area runs the show.

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except infrastructure is awful in solidly blue states as well as red states. What "conservative politicians" are to blame for the NYC subway falling apart? I think you've got the causation backward. There's a bigger "market" for anti-government rhetoric in the U.S. than in Europe because the governmental units closest to the people here are so awful.

The NYC subway is a poor example, since its funding is dependant on the conservative (but not for much longer) state government.

Calling the New York state government “conservative” is laughable. Democrats have controlled the governor’s seat for 32 of the last 43 years. They have controlled the Assembly (which has primary responsibility for tax and spending bills) for all of the last 43 years. New York state has one of the highest levels of taxes and public expenditures in the whole country.

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#228

I hate Comcast with a passion and have always fantasized about living in a progressive municipality that provides fiber to the home. However, a few years ago I bought a home and it’s only been over the last 6 months or so I’ve realized how horribly corrupt and mismanaged small city governments can be. We’re being sucked dry by our mayor who hired her cousin as city manager for an exorbitant compensation package. They…

"为人民服务"已变成一句空话。

Google Translate says: "Serving the people" has become an empty talk.

I'm not sure what others think, but I think it's probably better for the community that comments be in English unless there is a compelling reason for them to be in another language. But I am a native English speaker, so maybe this is just motivated reasoning on my part?

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well now we're two people on the internet arguing about what a third meant. This couldn't possibly end badly (: So I have two questions. 1: I read the original parent comment's second point as indicating that a 2x in performance for >2x price as something that should be seen negatively. Do you disagree with this intepretation? Why? 2: My argument was not clearly stated, so I will first state it here. It is unreasonab…

I do not see anything in the parent comment indicating a linear relationship. Making a more general comparison of prices is perfectly sound. If you must make an inference, you should construe the argument in the most favorable terms. Also, your choice of comparisons were of unlike goods, and "argument from analogy" is a weak form of argument.

> Now, for fun, let's integrate the price dimension to this report. Yes I have better (maybe 1.5 to 2 times as fast) Internet than my parents who are in Europe, but I also pay 3 times what they pay for it.

"Yes..., but" is a form of sentence that indicates disagreement. This was in response to a comment indicating that the US has faster internet than most large European nations.

The commenter's first argument was about Norway and Sweden, which were held up as examples of good internet countries.

I do not think it is is unfavorable to interpret the post as saying attempting to diminish the advantage posited in their parent (with the Akamai link). Please let me know if you disagree with this interpretation.

In their argument they said that the speed is 1.5x-2x, but the price is 3x. Again, "yes, but" is typically a form of disagreement. The "yes" portion grants a specific fact, and the "but" is intended to diminish the importance. Let me know if this is too unfavorable.

Since the "but" is intended to diminish the value of the double speed, we must infer that the expectation is that the price should be less than triple for double performance. There's not a lot of wiggle room here. We can bargain on fractions between double price and triple price. Let me know if you'd like to bargain on these fractions.

Additionally, the form of the argument is "performance is double, but price is more than double". It is not such a large stretch as you seem to be implying that the expectation in the sentence is that price and performance are proportional. Let me know if I'm off or misinterpreting you here.

Again, my argument is of two parts.

One, that we should expect in the general case that, due to the widespread phenomenon of diminishing returns, doublings of performance are associated with prices that are much more than double.

Two, that since this is the general case, the burden falls on the one expecting prices and performance to be so linear to show that we are in a special case.

Note: I would make this argument for any value between double and triple price, so feel free to haggle on those fractions.

You'll note I am not make analogies, unless you choose to interpret my quite explicit argument most unfavorably. I am arguing that there is a general case and that the general case predicts what the parent has "yes, but"ed. With this argument I am asking for a justification that we are in a special case. The valid counterarguments seem to me thus:

1. Present good evidence we are in a special case. 2. Argue that the general case is not a superlinear relationship between quality/performance and price.

I am open to other counterarguments, of course, as I would hate to push you into a path of argumentation which you do not support.

Of course, if you'd like to continue critiquing the form of arguments, rather than their content, it would become more difficult to trust in your good faith. There are so few teachers arrant these days.

Re: Comcast rejected by small town, residents vote for municipal fiber instead

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how on earth does it make sense to compare a rail network to an ISP?

When considering handing over a [n effective] monopoly on ISP services to a local government, it's reasonable to look around and see if they're generally managing other things that they do have a monopoly on well or poorly. While I don't love Comcast, their uptime and consistency for me has been excellent for me over the last decade and their value-for-money acceptable-[0]. I would not have the automatic expectation…

Comparing the price and quality of Comcast internet in the US with service in other developed countries (and some developing countries) clearly shows how poor a job Comcast is doing.

The fact that you find Comcast quality or price reasonable is further evidence that market-based outcomes for internet service in the US are not efficient.

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