Time to break academic publishing's stranglehold on research • Hacker News Board

Re: Time to break academic publishing's stranglehold on research

#221

Post by chrisseaton » Mon, Nov 26, 2018, 11:11 AM UTC

mcv wrote: post #215

chrisseaton wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to 'why' is that no money changes hands for any review - not to pay to get a review for your paper, and not to review a paper for someone else. It's a social system. You 'pay' for reviews of your papers, by reviewing other people's papers. All the publisher does is connect people up and produce the final product. You can argue that the cost to subscribe is therefore too high for that service. Fine, it may…

But the publisher is the one making the profit here. From other people's work, that other people pay for. The publisher doesn't add any real value to the process. They charge a high price for people to access other people's work. At no point does the publisher pay anyone for anything, yet they do get all the profit. It's pretty clear why this is a stupid system, isn't it? Simply saying "but that's the way it is" is n…

> It's pretty clear why this is a stupid system, isn't it?

Maybe! I'm just explaining why the reviewers aren't doing the work unpaid on their own time, which is a misconception people seem to have. Fewer misconceptions is better for the discussion about the remaining issues like whether the system is stupid or not.

Re: Time to break academic publishing's stranglehold on research

#222

Post by C1sc0cat » Mon, Nov 26, 2018, 11:14 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #146

dougmccune wrote: post #115

Academic publishing is a favorite recurring topic on HN, and it's one I've occasionally dipped into discussing, although these discussions are typically 99% one-sided and void of nuance or reasoned arguments. It's like discussing politics online. I'm a shareholder and board member of a large privately-held, family-owned academic publishing company. If anyone is interested in trying to understand what makes the indust…

I'm not sure people are trying to fix academic publishing so much as burn Elsevier to the ground. Whether or how they are replaced is a separate question. https://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/2016/12/12/why-i-still-wont-...

When I worked for RELEX (reed elsiveer) New Scientist was one of their "vanity" publications.

Re: Time to break academic publishing's stranglehold on research

#223

Post by BurnGpuBurn » Mon, Nov 26, 2018, 11:16 AM UTC

dougmccune wrote: post #115

Academic publishing is a favorite recurring topic on HN, and it's one I've occasionally dipped into discussing, although these discussions are typically 99% one-sided and void of nuance or reasoned arguments. It's like discussing politics online. I'm a shareholder and board member of a large privately-held, family-owned academic publishing company. If anyone is interested in trying to understand what makes the indust…

> Academic publishing is a favorite recurring topic on HN, and it's one I've occasionally dipped into discussing, although these discussions are typically 99% one-sided and void of nuance or reasoned arguments. It's like discussing politics online.

Well I think we should all be grateful then that your Highness has come down to us 99% one-sided thinkers void of nuance or reason. Way to start a discussion, asshole.

> I'm a shareholder and board member of a large privately-held, family-owned academic publishing company.

So obviously you can enlighten us with your completely unbiased view on this, since you have no stake in the matter at all, right?

Re: Time to break academic publishing's stranglehold on research

#224

Post by michaelt » Mon, Nov 26, 2018, 11:30 AM UTC

randomsearch wrote: post #159

dougmccune wrote: post #115

Academic publishing is a favorite recurring topic on HN, and it's one I've occasionally dipped into discussing, although these discussions are typically 99% one-sided and void of nuance or reasoned arguments. It's like discussing politics online. I'm a shareholder and board member of a large privately-held, family-owned academic publishing company. If anyone is interested in trying to understand what makes the indust…

Allow me to turn the tables a little: - why don’t publishers pay reviewers for the extensive time they spend reviewing the paper? - why don’t publishers pay academics who edit journals, another time consuming task? - why don’t publishers pay academics or institutions for a product they sell? I can’t comment on your company, but the above is the status quo for most of academia. Do you think this business model is ethi…

  why don’t publishers pay

Why buy a cow when you can get milk for free?

Re: Time to break academic publishing's stranglehold on research

#225

Post by garmaine » Mon, Nov 26, 2018, 11:31 AM UTC

dougmccune wrote: post #138

garmaine wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you summarize, in 50 words or less, what tangible benefit your family’s business provides to justify the intermediation? I’ll wait.

Not sure if you're asking about the role that academic journals play in general, or about what specific actions publishers do. Journals in general serve to curate an ever-increasing body of research and provide a crude method of gauging scientific quality, relevance to your field, and importance. They provide a crude method of judging the impact of scholars without having to read every single paper ever published. Pu…

The only tangible benefit I can read into that is peer review, which isn’t paid for by the journals at all. Open access journals have demonstrated the ability to have effective peer review journals without the middlemen.

Otherwise you haven’t mentioned anything of actual value.

Re: Time to break academic publishing's stranglehold on research

#226

Post by michaelt » Mon, Nov 26, 2018, 11:44 AM UTC

Vinnl wrote: post #192

panic wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to realize publishers are in the reputation business. Everyone realizes this. The problem is that you're abusing your position in this reputation system for profit. Do you think $40 is a fair price to read a paper from 1987? https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/109434208700100...

> Everyone realizes this. They absolutely don't. Every time this subject comes up, there are plenty of people wondering how expensive it can be to host a PDF. It's not; the price they're asking is not for the service of hosting a PDF, but for granting you the privilege of using their brand. A publisher has a monopoly on its brands, which means that there's almost no downwards price pressure.

  Every time this subject comes up, there are plenty of
  people wondering how expensive it can be to host a PDF.

I always assumed that was a rhetorical technique, a sort of jargon-free shorthand for "Given that variable costs are so low but the prices so high, surely this company's managers are either sinfully greedy with their profit margin, or sinfully inept in their inability to control back office costs"

Re: Time to break academic publishing's stranglehold on research

#227

Post by mmcwilliams » Mon, Nov 26, 2018, 11:45 AM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #119

dougmccune wrote: post #115

Academic publishing is a favorite recurring topic on HN, and it's one I've occasionally dipped into discussing, although these discussions are typically 99% one-sided and void of nuance or reasoned arguments. It's like discussing politics online. I'm a shareholder and board member of a large privately-held, family-owned academic publishing company. If anyone is interested in trying to understand what makes the indust…

Sorry if my reply seems trite, but the same sorts of things could be said about the cab, bookstore, and music industries. They were entrenched and difficult to take down, but most are better for it.

“Disruption” in those three industries you listed meant that large global monopolies or duopolies were created which captured the majority of the market.

Do you think it’s easier or harder today vs. 10 years ago for an outsider or upstart to create a cab or ride sharing company? How about starting a book selling company?

I’m not sure how those industries are better off except for the deeply-entrenched players that took over their respective markets.

Re: Time to break academic publishing's stranglehold on research

#228

Post by ForHackernews » Mon, Nov 26, 2018, 11:49 AM UTC

esfandia wrote: post #127

dougmccune wrote: post #115

Academic publishing is a favorite recurring topic on HN, and it's one I've occasionally dipped into discussing, although these discussions are typically 99% one-sided and void of nuance or reasoned arguments. It's like discussing politics online. I'm a shareholder and board member of a large privately-held, family-owned academic publishing company. If anyone is interested in trying to understand what makes the indust…

> You have to realize publishers are in the reputation business. That's right, and that's also why the prestigious researchers and universities, those with an already established reputation, have a responsibility: collectively leave the editorial boards of for-profit publishers, set up alternative venues with the help of university libraries. Share the archival, indexing and discovery effort among universities via pe…

MOOCs don't compete against traditional university education.

You're talking about eliminating, or at least sidelining traditional academic publishing. It's a completely different proposal.

Re: Time to break academic publishing's stranglehold on research

#229

Post by dhimes » Mon, Nov 26, 2018, 12:08 PM UTC

justinpombrio wrote: post #5

For anyone who still doesn't know this: publishers do not pay paper authors, in any field. I am also not aware of a publisher paying peer reviewers. (Lowly soon-to-be-postdoc here; a professor would be able to say more.)

OT:

Lowly soon-to-be-postdoc here

Congratulations :)

Re: Time to break academic publishing's stranglehold on research

#230

Post by mfukar » Mon, Nov 26, 2018, 12:17 PM UTC

dougmccune wrote: post #115

Academic publishing is a favorite recurring topic on HN, and it's one I've occasionally dipped into discussing, although these discussions are typically 99% one-sided and void of nuance or reasoned arguments. It's like discussing politics online. I'm a shareholder and board member of a large privately-held, family-owned academic publishing company. If anyone is interested in trying to understand what makes the indust…

> the root of the problems (of which there are many) are all cultural

Yes, thank you for restating the obvious. Research should be open, that is what we want. Off to do useful things now.