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Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

carlosrdrz.es

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Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#221

Post by carlisle_ »

theptip wrote: post #174
carlisle_ wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> taking more time away from actually building your side project and putting it into building infrastructure around your side project. I generally dislike this way of thinking. Infrastructure is a core component of whatever it is you're building, not an afterthought. Maybe you can defer things until a little bit later, but if you can build with infrastructure in mind you'll be saving yourself so many headaches down t…

> Infrastructure is a core component of whatever it is you're building That's true in some sense -- but you can get surprisingly far using a PaaS like Heroku to abstract that infrastructure away. I'm a big fan of Kubernetes, and use it in production at my company, but I would not recommend using k8s in a prototype/early-stage startup unless you're already very familiar with the tool. The complexity overhead of k8s is…

>The complexity overhead of k8s is non-trivial, and switching from Heroku to something like k8s doesn't involve undoing much work, since setting up Heroku is trivial.

This sounds like exactly what I'm advocating. I wasn't saying that you need to build specifically with Kubernetes in mind, but some people aren't even thinking about what it means to deploy to Heroku. Maybe you do some small amount of reading and research to know "switching from heroku to kubernetes is a viable migration path.' What I strongly dislike is this mentality:

> taking more time away from actually building your side project

None of what I've mentioned is time taken away or lost. Time spent doesn't just pause when you are ready to deploy or productionize. SWEs need to think more holistically about their software's lifecycle.

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#223

Post by lazyant »

He makes some valid points but I think if you want to write a blog entry about why "B" is not good for a case and you rather use "A" (that you already know), then you should at least try "B" technology; it doesn't seem the author has even tried k8s.

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#224

Post by dang »

justinsaccount wrote: post #98
yebyen wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the same thing I do with SmartOS in a far more complex way Citation needed. Yes, Kubernetes runs on Linux kernel and until someone ports it to use something other than iptables and the linux cgroups API, that will be true. But I could say the same thing about being locked into SVR4/OpenSolaris, and I bet you a Coke that a lot more people will agree with me. The Kubernetes slack community has over 48,000 members and…

Don't waste your time, he's a troll that pops up on every thread that has anything to do with things like docker or k8s. It doesn't matter what the problem is, smartos is the solution. SmartOS is solid technology, but he doesn't have the slightest clue what k8s does, but is completely certain that smartos somehow does "the same thing" better. They aren't even mutually exclusive, there's no reason you couldn't write a…

Personal attacks will get you banned here. Please make your points without stooping to that in the future.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#225

Post by dang »

Annatar wrote: post #104
justinsaccount wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't waste your time, he's a troll that pops up on every thread that has anything to do with things like docker or k8s. It doesn't matter what the problem is, smartos is the solution. SmartOS is solid technology, but he doesn't have the slightest clue what k8s does, but is completely certain that smartos somehow does "the same thing" better. They aren't even mutually exclusive, there's no reason you couldn't write a…

"Don't waste your time, he's a troll that pops up on every thread that has anything to do with things like docker or k8s." Thank you for an off-topic opinion. Yes, I do "pop up" on every Kubernetes and Docker topic because both are nothing but hype and bullshit (this topic with "no thanks" is a rare exception, and I wholeheartedly agree with the author of it, even though I vehemently disagree with some of his methods…

The personal attack wasn't ok, but please don't "pop up" on every thread to say predictable things. Pre-existing agendas are tedious, and tedium is what we all come here to avoid.

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#226

Post by icedchai »

justinsaccount wrote: post #192
icedchai wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could do "blue-green" deployments with port numbers... service rev A is on port 1001, service rev B is on port 1002... deploy new rev... change nginx config to point to 1002... roll back, you repoint to 1001...

So I need to write some code to keep track of which of A or B is running, then something else to template out a nginx configuration to switch between the two. Then I need to figure out how to upgrade the inactive one, test it, flip the port over in nginx, and flip it back if it breaks. Or kubectl apply -f app.yaml Which is less complex?

I'm pretty sure I could write a shell script to do that, with a bunch of grep/sed hackery in under an hour or two. For a single server, personal project, this is probably the simpler approach for me.

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#227

Post by Wurdan »

ABCLAW wrote: post #175
carlisle_ wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> taking more time away from actually building your side project and putting it into building infrastructure around your side project. I generally dislike this way of thinking. Infrastructure is a core component of whatever it is you're building, not an afterthought. Maybe you can defer things until a little bit later, but if you can build with infrastructure in mind you'll be saving yourself so many headaches down t…

>Infrastructure is a core component of whatever it is you're building, not an afterthought. Great, so use something appropriate for a small side project which in 99.99% of cases will not be k8. Unless the small side project is learning cluster management. In which case go nuts. K8's operating cost ($) might be manageable for a small project, but that doesn't mean the upfront learning and implementation costs (hrs) do…

>Unless the small side project is learning cluster management.

I think one of the underlying assumptions that this article missed about the original is that building a side project often isn't about what the end result will be. It's about the skills you pick up along the way.

If you have a killer product idea and you need to get it to market as quickly as possible then by all means, take the fastest route. But maybe you're working on something that's just a copy of an existing app so you can get the flavor of a new language or framework.

If that's the kind of project that someone's working on then whether or not k8 is applicable to the scale of the finished product is irrelevant. What matters is 1) do they see a benefit in increasing their knowledge of k8, and 2) can they do so without significantly ramping up the cost of the project.

The original article answers question 2, and provides a few arguments as to why the answer to 1 might be yes in the current job market.

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#228

Post by wpietri »

weberc2 wrote: post #145
wpietri wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, as somebody who is building a small Kubernetes cluster right now at home just for the fun of it: I think using Kubernetes for small projects is mostly a bad idea. So I appreciate the author warning people so they don't get misled by all the (justified) buzz around it. For your average developer who just wants to get something running on a port, Kubernetes introduces two barriers: containerization and Kube…

I think the original article made a good point, and one that seems to be overlooked by pretty much every critical response: if you don't already know standard sysadmin tooling and procedures, then the value proposition for k8s for small projects alone is probably comparable to standard sysadmin tooling. At least with k8s, you can take that knowledge with you when you want to scale. I don't know if I'm totally convinc…

Do you really thing you can set up and run a Kubernetes cluster, even a small one, without significant understanding of standard sysadmin tooling? I know a fair bit, and I didn't find it easy.

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#229

Post by tomjen3 »

Draiken wrote: post #122
falcolas wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's talk about complexity for a moment, for one aspect of a simple service: ingress. Kubernetes: apiVersion: extensions/v1beta1 kind: Ingress metadata: name: test-ingress spec: rules: - http: paths: - path: /testpath backend: serviceName: test servicePort: 80 Nginx: location /testpath { proxy_path http://127.0.0.1:8080 } Which is less complex? Which is beta, and thus could be changed over time (it happens a lot). W…

I think this is proving my point. They're basically the same, but one is completely dynamic and the other will have to be changed as soon as anything changes. We've been using Kubernetes in production for almost two years now and I have yet to face a big API change that breaks everything. The core APIs are stable. There's a lot of new stuff added, but nothing that breaks backwards compatibility. As you just said, if…

How do you configure it with a master postgress db that is persistent over reboots, hooked up to two hot slaves? With ability to do of site backup?

All deployments I have seen so far have been immutable infi scale webapps. That is easy.

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#230

Post by oblio »

tomc1985 wrote: post #139
jypepin wrote: post #5

I totally agree with this article. I'm giving a point of a view of a pure developer who knows nothing about DevOps things and managing servers. I kind of know what NGINX is and barely know how to configure something like systemd. I recently setup a digital ocean droplet and setup my blog there to actually understand how it works. It was great because I learned a ton and feel in control. Pretty simple setup - single d…

It is weird to hear developers say this. The tooling around your app is essential to understanding how it runs, why would someone not know this stuff?

Because they don't care, what they're doing is good enough and at the end of the day they want to go home and enjoy what they like together with the loved ones. Shocking, truly :p

I know this is a dirty thought, here on Hacker News.

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