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YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

nytimes.com

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Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#221

Post by tmorton »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #143
tmorton wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a lot of social issues, being given the midpoint solution is like being given half a baby. I think this cuts to the heart of the issue - and demonstrates the problem with this line of thinking. I also think you're missing the point of the Solomon story. When Solomon proposed that solution, one woman said "No, no - give her the baby." That woman was willing to compromise. She was willing to compromise all the wa…

Can you provide a specific example(s) of a side sacrificing a deeper issue in order to win, in recent history? I'm having trouble coming up with examples.

I can think of many cases where "the other side" refused to compromise, creating a negative-sum game. But let me cite an example where "my side" was in the wrong.

I'm a liberal-ish person, and I think most states could use more tax revenue. I'm also concerned about climate change. This is a pretty mainstream set of positions.

In 2016 there was a ballot initiative proposed in Washington state that would levy a tax on carbon emissions, and offset it with cuts to other taxes. The result would be revenue-neutral (or slightly revenue-negative). It was opposed by the usual suspects (energy companies), but also some environmental groups and the state Democratic party.

Part of the liberal argument was that the initiative wasn't perfect. Given a new source of revenue, liberals saw many needs that could be met, instead of tax cuts. But that wasn't the deal on the table. The initiative failed, and we got the "dead baby" of no carbon reductions, no spending on other needs, and a less efficient tax system.

Details here: https://ballotpedia.org/Washington_Carbon_Emission_Tax_and_S...

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#222

Post by MBCook »

sureaboutthis wrote: post #97
b0rsuk wrote: post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

More and more I find people who have done what I do; I don't watch TV "news" anymore and ignore almost every "news" article or posting online. Unless the headline might be a topic I'm specifically interested in and think it affects me I don't give it the time.

I’ve gotten to that point too. Even before things got so much worse in the last two years I had already mostly tuned out of news because it stopped being journalism. I would 100% tune out near the end of election cycles.

So much of it is just straight reporting. “X said this, Y said that.” No analysis, no critical thought as to whether any of those few points worth presenting at all. Just clips of people’s claims, totally unchecked.

If I wanted to know what a candidate or CEO said without any analysis, I could just read their press release.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#223

Post by Chickenality »

ddebernardy wrote: post #199
codq wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for using this Art19 link, I’d never heard of this company. Glad to know there are folks out there hard at work ruining podcasts.

Out of curiosity, why are you writing they're ruining podcasts? (FWIW, I wasn't aware of them until today, when I searched that podcast's permalink on their site.)

This is my first time hearing about art19. But after a quick visit to their site, I can guess at what GP was referring to. Looks like they do listener tracking, targeted ads, dynamic ad insertion, etc.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#224

Post by mrec »

jaredklewis wrote: post #201
pjc50 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As has been pointed out, in lots of areas a "balanced" view doesn't make sense. I'm reminded of the judgement of Solomon dictating that, to settle a dispute between two women as to whom a baby belonged to, it should be cut in half and they be given half each. For a lot of social issues, being given the midpoint solution is like being given half a baby. "All humans are created equal and endowed with rights" is a radic…

I don’t think balanced means “in the middle.” Someone can espouse a solution to a problem that is extremely liberal or extremely conservative and still have a balanced viewpoint. I consider somone to have a balanced point of view if they can recognize that all solutions have tradeoffs, frankly discuss the tradeoffs of different solutions, and argue why their proposed solution is the most attractive option. I think it…

Agreed. To put it in concrete terms, someone claiming to have a truly balanced view of a subject should be able to pass an ideological Turing test for any of the major positions on that subject.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#225

Post by calt »

darepublic wrote: post #219
AJ007 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elon Musk and Nick Bostrom were mocked for warning about the dangers of powerful future AI. I've said this here before, the primary use cases of machine learning right now, today, are hostile. That does not bode well for our future. We have very manipulative advertising, mass surveillance used to put ethnic and religious minorities in concentration camps in China, and in YouTube's case, recommending a lot of totally…

There has always been junk info floating around. What truly scares me are people lIke the new York times who want to censor anyone they disagree with: to the point of wanting youtube to only show political and scientific videos that they personally agree with. Sometimes on YouTube I watch junk science because I'm bored. I know it's bullshit. What I like about he platform is it represents a diverse range of ideas and…

You're misrepresenting the article.

It's not so much about taking the videos down, as the recommendation algorithms pushing people in the extremist direction.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#226

Post by cdubzzz »

sureaboutthis wrote: post #97
b0rsuk wrote: post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

More and more I find people who have done what I do; I don't watch TV "news" anymore and ignore almost every "news" article or posting online. Unless the headline might be a topic I'm specifically interested in and think it affects me I don't give it the time.

I advise one tweak to that — find a good local news source. That may be state or city focused depending on where you live. A lot of things happen in those arenas that do affect you, whether you know or it not.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#227

Post by crtasm »

atlantic wrote: post #189
close04 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Solomon story one woman was 100% right and one was 100% wrong. Are there many social issues where the 2 sides that meed this criterion? I think a better visualization of the problem is "you can't cross a canyon in less than a single bound". Sometimes there is no meeting half way. Last but not least, compromising is sometimes not an option. It's like the paradox of tolerance where the only thing you have to be…

> Hate speech is not free speech any more than contract killing is just a financial transaction. Personal anecdote. When I moved to the UK in the 1970, there was a little platform in Hyde Park called Speaker's Corner. Anyone could step onto it and make a speech about anything, anything at all; they could do so in the strongest terms, without being bothered; there was always a small audience standing around, and often…

Speaker's Corner still exists, I can't say if it's still possible to voice any opinion there though.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#228

Post by ethiclub »

ericdykstra wrote: post #57

This article seems a bit sensationalized. The examples they give are a single video with 500,000 views, and a couple of channels whose views average 20-30k. If YouTube is recommending "extreme" channels so often, why aren't they getting more views? > “Lies, propaganda and manipulation are harmful for society, but on their own are not illegal — and so our hands are often tied,” said Mr. Ipsen, of the government-linked…

>Good. I think it's insane that the German government is even trying to establish a Ministry of Truth.

What is the alternative (if you or anyone is able and comfortable in answering)?

Option 1: Let the free market regulate itself.

Option 2: Let government govern - And have the state regulate the free market.

Option 1 depends on demand from the consumer being ethically driven (rather than purely financial / selfish).

I think that society has a long way to go before we can consider option 1 viable. Letting the state regulate however is a terrifying prospect if 'fallen into the wrong hands' or 'the algorithm is biased'.

Is anyone aware of the leading conversations / academic & theoretical consensus in best structure / infrastructure / accountability hub for this problem?

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#230

Post by yourbandsucks »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #143
tmorton wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a lot of social issues, being given the midpoint solution is like being given half a baby. I think this cuts to the heart of the issue - and demonstrates the problem with this line of thinking. I also think you're missing the point of the Solomon story. When Solomon proposed that solution, one woman said "No, no - give her the baby." That woman was willing to compromise. She was willing to compromise all the wa…

Can you provide a specific example(s) of a side sacrificing a deeper issue in order to win, in recent history? I'm having trouble coming up with examples.

Not to get too 2016 about it but a lot of Republicans would've told you in 2015 that their top 3 beliefs were family values, cutting gov't spending and free trade.
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