Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling • Hacker News Board

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#221

Post by crististm » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 9:12 PM UTC

jstanley wrote: post #34

TACIXAT wrote: post #21

A currency with no mechanism for monetary policy is not going to be adopted. Bitcoin is purely deflationary for more reasons than just people losing their keys. For example, a fixed reward split between a growing group of miners will also cause a rising price floor. The miners will not sell for less than their electricity costs, which makes the smaller piece of the block reward they receive have a higher price. So yo…

> The miners will not sell for less than their electricity costs, which makes the smaller piece of the block reward they receive have a higher price. That's not how it works. If you spent $100 in electricity and you have an asset that's worth $50, you can either sell it for $50 and only be down $50 on your electricity, or you can not sell it at all and be down $100 on your electricity. Electricity cost of mining does…

What do you mean? That the miners will sell at a loss?

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#222

Post by alienplutonic » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 9:13 PM UTC

qeternity wrote: post #144

deevolution wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin advantage: easily and instantly divisible. Gold not so much. Bitcoin advantage: weighs nothing, highly transportable. Gold not so much.

> Bitcoin advantage: easily and instantly divisible. Gold not so much. Not so important for a store of value. > Bitcoin advantage: weighs nothing, highly transportable. Gold not so much. Yet requires an order of magnitude more skill and overhead to handle.

Hardware wallets are stupid simple to use for BTC.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#223

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 9:14 PM UTC

amatic wrote: post #139

kristjansson wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly: own some. Not spend some, hence the problem with using it as a currency.

I'm not sure that is a real problem. You own some, then when you want to spend, you spend. The fact that it is deflationary means you might postpone your purchase, but ultimately, you will need to eat/travel/etc more than you need to "own" currency. Or are there other problems?

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#224

Post by ttoinou » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 9:15 PM UTC

mortdeus wrote: post #185

ttoinou wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But don't forget credit cards offer others services, such as charge refund and fraud protection

Are you talking about credit cards or debit cards? There is a big difference when making a comparison to bitcoin. The reason why bitcoin doesn't have these features is that there isn't a bank sitting between the two parties doing business. To exchange a bitcoin with somebody, you are essentially trading "in cash". When you do business with somebody directly in cash, the same kind of shortcomings are involved, especia…

Both credit and debit?

  The reason why bitcoin doesn't have these features is that there isn't a bank sitting between the two parties doing business

Yes I know, that's why we should make fairer comparisons..

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#225

Post by alienplutonic » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 9:17 PM UTC

bunderbunder wrote: post #149

comboy wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this context, it's much harder to protect gold from the government (if it decides it wants to take it away). Plus buying stuff online is more tricky. I could envision alternative reality though, where there are companies specializing in providing tokens that have 100% coverage in gold. You would need to trust them and their software, but some trust is always involved. The problem is those would be an easy target w…

> In this context, it's much harder to protect gold from the government (if it decides it wants to take it away). If you're to the point where some authority is forcefully taking your assets away, I'd much rather have physical possession of gold than Bitcoin. You can bury gold somewhere and pretend you don't have it. Bitcoin, on the other hand, takes place on a public ledger, so they can, in theory, always track it d…

It's much more practical to obfuscate ownership of BTC (buy it pseudononymously with paper cash, send it through a mixer or XMR) than it is to bury gold.

The buried gold is hard to access, not portable, and you would have to be damn sure some hobo didn't see you bury it.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#226

Post by crististm » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 9:18 PM UTC

amatic wrote: post #139

kristjansson wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly: own some. Not spend some, hence the problem with using it as a currency.

I'm not sure that is a real problem. You own some, then when you want to spend, you spend. The fact that it is deflationary means you might postpone your purchase, but ultimately, you will need to eat/travel/etc more than you need to "own" currency. Or are there other problems?

Pardon my french but what the fuck do you do with a number that you "own"? The whole point of a currency is to be spent as opposed to be "owned".

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#227

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 9:30 PM UTC

GW150914 wrote: post #113

comboy wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this context, it's much harder to protect gold from the government (if it decides it wants to take it away). Plus buying stuff online is more tricky. I could envision alternative reality though, where there are companies specializing in providing tokens that have 100% coverage in gold. You would need to trust them and their software, but some trust is always involved. The problem is those would be an easy target w…

If the government wants your gold or private key, they’re going to get it. How long are you going to hold out against their proverbial $5 rubber hose? Solitary confinement? Mundane legal threats?

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#228

Post by CryptoPunk » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 9:32 PM UTC

agorabinary wrote: post #158

CyberDildonics wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's pretty remarkable that the transaction layer (Lightning network) on top of Bitcoin hasn't garnered any discussion in this comment section I would say it's pretty encouraging since it barely works, doesn't deliver on any of its promises and much more convoluted to use that normal crypto-currency.

I can send less than a satoshi to someone across the globe for virtually zero fees, anonymously and without any need to wait for block confirmations? And all of this works right now on mainnet? Bitcoin progress has always consisted of overcoming allegedly insurmountable problems, Lightning dev is no different. Next up is solving efficient routing and intermittent nodes.

>>Bitcoin progress has always consisted of overcoming allegedly insurmountable problems, Lightning dev is no different.

Bitcoin's founder solved one allegedly insurmountable problem: the Byzantine Generals' problem. It's irrational to believe this means Bitcoin Core's development team, who had no part in the original design of Bitcoin, will solve more problems of this class.

Bitcoin Core should have fully exploited the existing breakthrough in decentralized consensus, by simply raising the block size limit to provide enough space for the world to use Bitcoin, instead of pushing Bitcoin's luck, and premising its success on an uncertain technology like LN.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#229

Post by dullpastry » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 9:34 PM UTC

GW150914 wrote: post #113

comboy wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this context, it's much harder to protect gold from the government (if it decides it wants to take it away). Plus buying stuff online is more tricky. I could envision alternative reality though, where there are companies specializing in providing tokens that have 100% coverage in gold. You would need to trust them and their software, but some trust is always involved. The problem is those would be an easy target w…

If the government wants your gold or private key, they’re going to get it. How long are you going to hold out against their proverbial $5 rubber hose? Solitary confinement? Mundane legal threats?

https://www.deepdotweb.com/2014/07/29/vendor-xanaxking-anti-...

> To date, agents have seized over $200,000 in cash and $25,000 in Bitcoins from Defendant’s operation.

> …It is critical to note, however, that this figure represents a small fraction of the proceeds that were flowing to Defendant. The cash seized came only from funds that Defendant had on hand on May 28, 2014, and from an earlier limited seizure of packages. As discussed above, Defendant’s operation was high-volume and lucrative, and agents do not know where Defendant has hidden the rest of the money.

> While agents made a limited seizure of only $25,000 in Bitcoins from Defendant, it is possible that he has access to significantly greater quantities of this currency.

https://www.deepdotweb.com/2018/01/11/darknet-vendor-dutchki...

> The ex-boyfriend may have earned even more money, but he told the court that he had forgotten the passwords needed to access one of his laptops.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/21/manchester-s...

> The value of their sales was at least £812,000, the court heard, but their profits are likely to have grown exponentially due to the rise in the value of bitcoin over the period. Prosecutors have so far been unable to trace Assaf’s bitcoin.

There are hundreds of other cases in which they didn't seize 100% of the suspect's BTC.

The cases in which they do seize 100% get more media attention, but they are actually in the minority.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#230

Post by comboy » Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 9:52 PM UTC

wruza wrote: post #180

comboy wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it know you have one? You can use brain wallet[1], you can use trezor with multiple passphrases. You can give up some of your bitcoins and if you manage your wallets properly then no one can prove you have some more. 1. Don't use brain wallets, unless you really understand security

It doesn’t work that way. You spend a week in a cold dirty room with insects, hungry, isolated, misinformed with worst fears and perspectives. Occasionally you speak with an interrogator who can bet on the time of your mental breakdown by simply looking at you for a minute. This is a well-known procedure that doesn’t even require a knowledge of what should be revealed. Trained people can stand it if stakes are high (…

Gee, that got pretty dark. We are just comparing options here. Physical things are easier to get from you. It's hard to argue otherwise since information can be represented as a physical thing, but it gives you more options. You can split your private key between 5 friends you trust and make 3 of 5 required (+ password why not) and in general get pretty creative.

If you are spending a week in a cold dirty room etc., and especially if some gov got you there, I don't think it matters much how guilty you are or what wealth do you have. They own you.