False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm • Hacker News Board

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#221

Post by jriot » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:06 PM UTC

gdubs wrote: post #174

zip1234 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Already done. Education is considered a public good. That is why K-12 education is paid for in the US. As far as a higher degree, the landscapers working across the street probably would not benefit from getting a degree and I do not see how the public would benefit from paying for a degree for those guys either. There are a significant number of jobs out there that would not benefit from people getting a degree. The…

The degree might not matter for certain types of jobs, but the additional education could still enrich people’s lives — and a more educated populace could make for a better society in general.

Libraries are publicly funded places allowing you to enrich your educational needs. Yet, they have become a homeless shelter.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#222

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:07 PM UTC

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #127

bedhead wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is going to lend tens of thousands of dollars to an 18 year old with no income, no assets, and no credit?

Then make college free!

With whose money?

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#223

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:10 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #218

everdev wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, loans help increase prices just as with cars and housing. But the supply/demand equation is still the same. A high number of high school graduates want those few freshman seats at top colleges and are willing to pay X over the next 10-20 years to attend. College prices will rise until they hit that number. The structure of the loan (interest rate, terms, etc.) is factored into the value of X. The problem comes…

They are only willing to pay X because X=Y+Z, where Y is what they can afford and Z is the max loan they can get. If they couldn’t get that loan Z, market forces would cause college costs to approach Y.

True, but then only rich parents would be able to send their kids to college, because they'd be able to win all the bidding wars.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#224

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:14 PM UTC

douglaswlance wrote: post #142

mkirklions wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I think) I'm a fan of getting rid of subsidized loans for education. It has only made the cost of education go up rather than make college affordable. But on the flip side, what can be expected from people with no ability to afford college at the new price? Ive been told over and over that my personal situation working full time on the midnight shift and going to college is 'unrealistic' for everyone to do. So whats…

The solution is to stop orienting our society around institutional learning. We have a global information network. We need to orient society around individual learning, not academia. Kids living at home and taking (mostly) pre-programmed online courses should be the norm. It is vastly cheaper, and can deliver more consistently better results.

The problem is credentials. If you have a college degree in X, you can prove it to me. If you lived at home and took pre-programmed online courses, I need a way of determining whether you actually know what those courses should have taught you.

Of course, a college degree doesn't really tell me that, either. If you can solve this problem, you could make online education superior to college education (at least in terms of value to an employer).

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#225

Post by douglaswlance » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:18 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #224

douglaswlance wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is to stop orienting our society around institutional learning. We have a global information network. We need to orient society around individual learning, not academia. Kids living at home and taking (mostly) pre-programmed online courses should be the norm. It is vastly cheaper, and can deliver more consistently better results.

The problem is credentials. If you have a college degree in X, you can prove it to me. If you lived at home and took pre-programmed online courses, I need a way of determining whether you actually know what those courses should have taught you. Of course, a college degree doesn't really tell me that, either. If you can solve this problem, you could make online education superior to college education (at least in term…

All you would need is a verified testing center program.

There are more libraries in the USA than McDonalds. Turn them into testing centers.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#226

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:28 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #224

douglaswlance wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is to stop orienting our society around institutional learning. We have a global information network. We need to orient society around individual learning, not academia. Kids living at home and taking (mostly) pre-programmed online courses should be the norm. It is vastly cheaper, and can deliver more consistently better results.

The problem is credentials. If you have a college degree in X, you can prove it to me. If you lived at home and took pre-programmed online courses, I need a way of determining whether you actually know what those courses should have taught you. Of course, a college degree doesn't really tell me that, either. If you can solve this problem, you could make online education superior to college education (at least in term…

> The problem is credentials. If you have a college degree in X, you can prove it to me. If you lived at home and took pre-programmed online courses, I need a way of determining whether you actually know what those courses should have taught you.

There is already an approach that addresses this: competency-based degree programs.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#227

Post by RestlessMind » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

Goronmon wrote: post #141

bedhead wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is going to lend tens of thousands of dollars to an 18 year old with no income, no assets, and no credit?

Who is going to lend tens of thousands of dollars to an 18 year old with no income, no assets, and no credit? So, just to be clear 18 year olds getting tens of thousands in dischargeable loans is ridiculous, but 18 year olds getting tens of thousands in non-dischargeable loans makes total sense? I mean, I understand why if you are a person making money off student loans, the latter is a great situation to have. But f…

> I mean, I understand why if you are a person making money off student loans, the latter is a great situation to have. But for anyone else, I'm not sure I agree that it's something we should fight for.

But when a student needs a loan to pay for their education, the person lending money is more important than everyone else. If you are not going to incentivize lending money for college debt and instead going to add risks (of not getting paid back because discharging loans is now easy), then you will have less loans in the first place.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#228

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

douglaswlance wrote: post #225

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is credentials. If you have a college degree in X, you can prove it to me. If you lived at home and took pre-programmed online courses, I need a way of determining whether you actually know what those courses should have taught you. Of course, a college degree doesn't really tell me that, either. If you can solve this problem, you could make online education superior to college education (at least in term…

All you would need is a verified testing center program. There are more libraries in the USA than McDonalds. Turn them into testing centers.

Right, a verified testing program that the bulk of employers recognize as valid, which is slightly harder than what you said.

And libraries probably want to continue to be libraries, rather than becoming testing centers.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#229

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 10:00 PM UTC

jwally wrote: post #92

The U.S. would do itself a huge favour by allowing student debt to be bankruptable. College prices can rise infinitely because there is an unlimited supply of AAA+ debt to feed it. Drop that rating to reality and investors don't buy the debt, loans don't get originated, demand for college at $250k dries up.

> The U.S. would do itself a huge favour by allowing student debt to be bankruptable.

Student loan debt is dischargeable in bankruptcy, it's just more difficult than other unsecured debt.

But the US would do better to just stop having federal student loans at all, in favor of need-based and service-based grants, rather than tweaking the terms under which loans are dischargeable.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#230

Post by RestlessMind » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 10:03 PM UTC

How about:

- allowing discharging of student debt after 10 years

- allowing someone to pay only up to 10% of adjusted gross income per year (lenders cannot ask for more; voluntary prepayment is okay)

What will happen, probably, is that:

- lenders will start looking at earning potential of various degrees and loan amounts will be tied to degrees being pursued

- tuitions for degrees with low earning potential will be lowered

- universities who cannot afford to lower tuitions will shut down some departments. That slack will be picked up by community colleges.

- some of the majors will only be pursued by rich (as happened for hundreds of years)