Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss • Hacker News Board

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#221

Post by taneq » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 12:55 PM UTC

newfoundglory wrote: post #219

taneq wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many days at a time? I used to drink a lot of coffee on weekdays but none on weekends and didn't notice it making any difference. Stopped drinking coffee altogether and after a few days I was really noticing the difference, and it took about two weeks for the withdrawals to wear off.

Six weeks, once (mostly to prove it for conversations like this), more often something like 2-6 days. I can really take it or leave it as caffeine, but keep drinking stuff for flavor and enjoyment - if they made decaf red bull I could give up caffeine tomorrow :)

Fair enough, it does seem like different people react to it in sometimes markedly different ways so I don't disbelieve you.

(As an aside, it's an interesting problem how long is 'long enough' when proving you can go without something.)

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#222

Post by ulisesrmzroche » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 2:15 PM UTC

e19293001 wrote: post #141

ulisesrmzroche wrote: post #130

I drink about a gallon of caffeinated drinks a day, sometimes more. Am I the only one? I don't have problems sleeping, headaches, or with fatigue. I look forward to the jitters; it actually cheers me up to know that soon I'll be so intense.

Your not the only one. I drink coffee and never had sleep problems even when I drink before going to bed. I don't know why.

Good to know! I’ll start reading into it and let you know if I find anything.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#223

Post by andai » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 2:18 PM UTC

synthmeat wrote: post #35

andai wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried Modafinil for a few weeks with some friends. The alertness is quite incredible, although for me made me unable to fall asleep until dawn (even on half the lowest dose). The others have no trouble sleeping even with large doses, but experienced some bad headaches, or personality changes ("I just want to work all day now" -- this may not be bad depending on context). I quit the trial when I developed large purp…

In my case, hydrating excessively (>3 liters per day) mitigated most of the negative side-effects. Jaw clenching still persists. Effect attenuates with regular daily use for me, despite most research to the contrary, which leads me to believe it's caused just by plain old lack of sleep during consumption days. Care to elaborate on the skin issues? Were they planar circles (I know, oxymoron)? And what's "large"? I cou…

It was a while ago. About 1cm diameter, reddish-purplish. Looked very concerning, intuitively, and reminded me of the horror stories I had read about modafinil occasionally causing life-threatening skin reactions.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#224

Post by ulisesrmzroche » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 2:27 PM UTC

robbiep wrote: post #134

ulisesrmzroche wrote: post #130

I drink about a gallon of caffeinated drinks a day, sometimes more. Am I the only one? I don't have problems sleeping, headaches, or with fatigue. I look forward to the jitters; it actually cheers me up to know that soon I'll be so intense.

~ 25% Caucasians are fast metabolisers of caffeine so can expect to not notice much of a change with standard doses. Doesn’t mean it isn’t doing it’s thing on a biochemical level (both reuptake of intracellular adenosine and driving tolerance)

I was born and raised half my life in Mexico, so I probably don’t have that trait.

I wonder if perhaps there’s something related though.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#225

Post by rojobuffalo » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 6:28 PM UTC

williamdclt wrote: post #176

rojobuffalo wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. Trying to shortcut sleep is to misunderstand what happens in your brain while you are asleep. Your brain uses sleep to run processes akin to garbage collection, pathway reinforcement, and wide-range association building. It's a critical step in complex problem solving. If you're working on a problem during the day, then have a good night's sleep, you will typically find it easier to think about the pro…

I don't know about problem solving (it's kinda hard to really experience it). But I've experienced that very regularly while playing music: Try to learn some how to play some complex part (piano, guitar, drums, whatever) sometime in the evening. You struggle obviously, you spend a good hour trying to get it. Give up, go to sleep: the next day you're way better at playing this part than you were after one hour of non-…

Good point. There is probably more evidence of sleep's role in learning than problem solving. Reflecting on what I wrote, I think I was thinking about novel problems.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#226

Post by robbiep » Sat, Jun 09, 2018, 10:08 AM UTC

ulisesrmzroche wrote: post #224

robbiep wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~ 25% Caucasians are fast metabolisers of caffeine so can expect to not notice much of a change with standard doses. Doesn’t mean it isn’t doing it’s thing on a biochemical level (both reuptake of intracellular adenosine and driving tolerance)

I was born and raised half my life in Mexico, so I probably don’t have that trait. I wonder if perhaps there’s something related though.

23 and me will tell you for $100

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#227

Post by eggsyntax » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

WhompingWindows wrote: post #133

growlist wrote: post #3

Personal anecdata, I was drinking several cups of coffee to get myself through 7 hours' driving with a full work day spliced within. I used to feel absolutely dreadful. Why am I so tired despite drinking all this coffee? I used to think. I then started limiting myself to one small coffee a day. Bingo, all symptoms gone. The coffee was making me feel far worse than I would otherwise have done as it wore off, I believe…

It's alertness effects go away after repeated use and subsequent tolerance building. The best way to use it is in moderation: decaf or no caffeine some days, caffeine other days when it is needed. Drinking it daily is common and often done out of liking/habit/addiction or some combination of those. However, the best positive effects will be seen with moderation.

"It's alertness effects go away after repeated use and subsequent tolerance building"

Link to evidence? I don't remember seeing anywhere in the literature that caffeine stops being effective when used daily and long-term, nor does it match my own experience.

Thanks!

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#228

Post by eggsyntax » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 6:31 PM UTC

acconrad wrote: post #94

In case anyone found that study difficult to read, the optimal strategy was, over the course of 3 days, one 600mg dose after 12pm on days 2 and 3 of a 3 day string of sleep loss.

Will you point out where it says that? I really did find this paper unusually cryptic about concrete takeaways.

Table 2 suggests that to match the performance of studies 3 and 4 (done by other researchers), which each gave 600 mg of caffeine, they were able to cut the dosage down to 500 mg and 400 mg respectively. But it's not clear to me that they're recommending that as the overall optimum, and that's the only place I'm finding "600" in the paper.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#229

Post by eggsyntax » Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #144

trendia wrote: post #137

Genetics play an important factor. CYP1A2, one of the enzymes that metabolizes caffeine, varies by as much as 40x between individuals. In those with a high level of the enzyme, caffeine is metabolized quickly, so they can drink coffee in the afternoon and still fall asleep. They are less likely to get anxiety from caffeine, and do not suffer from a higher risk of heart attacks with coffee consumption. In contrast, a…

My dad (in Italy) drinks his last espresso after dinner, at ~9pm, every night, and soundly falls asleep by 10:30am. Perhaps he has a high level of CYP1A2? I am wondering if there's a cheap but effective method of measuring it.

May not qualify as cheap, but I believe 23andMe will tell you about the genes you've got which control your CYP1A2 levels, and predict your coffee intake accordingly.