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Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

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Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#221

Post by icu »

ben509 wrote: post #9
Lionsion wrote: post #2

IIRC, the GDPR is very explicit about what constitutes valid consent, so things like pre-checked check-boxes aren't valid. Is "consent" gained by a screen with only an "I agree" button even kosher by it?

It may be that FB's lawyers come at it with a more American view whereby it's legal if it complies with the letter of the law. I suspect the Euro legal system tends to build a fence around the Torah, so to speak.

The European regulatory view is often 'outcomes based' rather than the American 'rules based'. What I mean is that in the European approach, you might follow the rules, but fail in the outcome or 'the spirit' of the law. In that case, you have still broken the law. If you allow a gross generalisation, European regulators point to perverse outcomes in the US where morality is subverted by the law as a reason why this approach is better. There is however a much higher compliance cost in the EU than in the US due to this approach.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#222

Post by icebraining »

dbrgn wrote: post #172
ovao wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry if it wasn't clear. I'm suggesting that a business should have some right to deny service to a user who chooses not to participate in tracking, so long as it's made abundantly and plainly clear to said user that they'd be tracked, and that the user consents to that. Based on my interpretation, the GDPR simply precludes that possibility.

I assume if you made a business where the user can sell their behavioral data for a service in return, and if the whole goal of the business was selling data in return for a service, then I would interpret the data collection to be strictly required for the business goal and thus legal under the GDPR (given explicit consent). The official goal of Facebook is not "buying your data" but "providing a social network". Th…

I think the data must be actually necessary for the thing you're providing to the user. So if you're paying cash in exchange for data, that wouldn't be allowed, because you don't need someone's data in order to give them cash.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#223

Post by KozmoNau7 »

jacquesm wrote: post #201
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They pulled out of one of the smallest markets they could find, as a PR move to "show that they mean business". They had three restaurants in the entire country, and they pulled out because of the financial crisis, not because of taxes. That's hardly a sign that they would pull out of France, Germany or even Denmark. If by "international technology" you mean "blatant disregard for privacy", then good riddance. We don…

If McDonalds were to pull out of France there would be quite a few happy French people.

Absolutely. I would not miss them at all here in Denmark, either. We have so many better cafés and fast food restaurants. We absolutely would not miss their bland junk.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#224

Post by rock_hard »

brador wrote: post #220
donatj wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denial of service is a perfectly valid route to GDPR compliance.

Is it? If they hold personal data of EU citizens in a shadow profile they must allow a way to view and correct or delete it. Head in sand like this approach will remain unacceptable to EU.

This assume that they have such shadow profiles...I have yet to see any evidence of it though

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#225

Post by icebraining »

donatj wrote: post #197
EastSmith wrote: post #121

It is clear that FB does not plan to be GDPR compliant [1] https://medium.com/@bozhobg/facebook-doesnt-plan-to-be-gdpr-...

Denial of service is a perfectly valid route to GDPR compliance.

Only if the personal data is necessary to provide the service. And "my business model makes it necessary" doesn't cut it. Otherwise you need consent, but you can't DoS if it's denied.

EDIT: removed wrong link.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#226

Post by rosser »

moz23 wrote: post #102
Tharkun wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just the US. Most of the western world has incredibly invasive security theatre in airports and train stations now.

No, it doesn't. (Except for perhaps UK and Canada.)

I regularly travel to Peru. For years now, it has been the policy of the Peruvian aviation authority that you may not board flights to the US with bottles of water purchased after the security checkpoint.

They have queues set up at the gate to rifle through your knickers in search of contraband dihydrogen monoxide, and will force you to dump any you have, and/or deny you boarding if you don't comply obsequiously enough.

Flying to Mexico (or anywhere else) and then the States? Or even Europe? You're fine. Even when you board the flight that will land in the States, your water is welcome. It's only direct flights to the US, and it's only (in my experience) enforced on outbound flights, from Lima. I've never encountered this anywhere else, and I've visited dozens of countries, and did a several months long RTW a few years ago.

Once you've spent 6-10 hours in a can at cruising altitude, with only the occasional thimbleful of water a few times, because of this kind of invasive idiocy, you might have a broader perspective on how much of aviation security is theater.

EDIT: That's just one example of the absurdity I've encountered in my travels. Another: being told that my carry-on sized backpack was somehow a material threat to the plane I was trying to board, and that it needed to be checked in the hold.

What am I supposed to do there? Logic my way out of my paid fare? Into one of $country's TSA-alike's interrogation rooms?

This nonsense is endemic to air travel, over the last decade particularly, and it's only getting worse.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#227

Post by pgwhalen »

newscracker wrote: post #218

Things like this make me very, very angry! So many missteps over the years. So many things bungled. So many dark patterns to fool users. Yet, where is the mass exodus of employees from Facebook? If you're still working in any company that Facebook owns in the technology or privacy or legal front, don't you realize what harm you're contributing to? And you're still ok with that? Don't you have a choice? I'm appalled t…

Even though you never hear the counterpoint on HN, it’s important to remember that FB’s behaviors are not necessarily objectively bad - people can have different views on these things.

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#228

Post by [deleted] »

lainga wrote: post #204
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because this ToS thing is not actually a GDPR-compliant opt-in. It's a routine ToS update, with a few tracking things tacked at the end of it. Companies have always been able to deny users access if they don't accept a ToS, but clicking "I Accept" to the ToS shown in the screenshots is not a GDPR opt-in, and I cannot stress that enough. It is just a ToS update, which does not cover GDPR-compliant opt-in to tracki…

I originally was of your mindset as well (FB is in breach of compliance right now) but could not find any mention in the GDPR articles or recitals of "denial of access", "availability", etc. to back my views up. I would tend to agree with you if I could find a source for the stipulation in your 6th paragraph.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#229

Post by [deleted] »

lainga wrote: post #204
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because this ToS thing is not actually a GDPR-compliant opt-in. It's a routine ToS update, with a few tracking things tacked at the end of it. Companies have always been able to deny users access if they don't accept a ToS, but clicking "I Accept" to the ToS shown in the screenshots is not a GDPR opt-in, and I cannot stress that enough. It is just a ToS update, which does not cover GDPR-compliant opt-in to tracki…

I originally was of your mindset as well (FB is in breach of compliance right now) but could not find any mention in the GDPR articles or recitals of "denial of access", "availability", etc. to back my views up. I would tend to agree with you if I could find a source for the stipulation in your 6th paragraph.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook now denying access unless EU users opt-in to tracking

#230

Post by newscracker »

pgwhalen wrote: post #227
newscracker wrote: post #218

Things like this make me very, very angry! So many missteps over the years. So many things bungled. So many dark patterns to fool users. Yet, where is the mass exodus of employees from Facebook? If you're still working in any company that Facebook owns in the technology or privacy or legal front, don't you realize what harm you're contributing to? And you're still ok with that? Don't you have a choice? I'm appalled t…

Even though you never hear the counterpoint on HN, it’s important to remember that FB’s behaviors are not necessarily objectively bad - people can have different views on these things.

I agree that people can have different views on these things for various reasons. But I don't see how "FB's behaviors are not necessarily objectively bad", unless one considers only the profit motive as prime without giving any thought to other factors. Can you expand on that?
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