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List of screw drives

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Re: List of screw drives

#221

Post by nemetroid »

freehunter wrote: post #149
Doxin wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A Pozidriv bit does not fit in a Phillips screw[citation needed] A Pozidriv bit fits in a philips juuuust well enough for you to not notice it's the wrong bit.

Yeah, I don't think "that's not phillips, that's pozidrive" is a good excuse. If they're that close, then pozidrive is just a non-standardard-complying phillips bit. It's the IE6 of screw heads, and the confusion is all their own fault.

The Phillips is the IE6 of screw heads. Pozidriv is an improved version which has long since replaced Phillips in Europe. I was unaware that Phillips screw heads were still common in the US until reading this thread.

Re: List of screw drives

#222

Post by Karunamon »

tlb wrote: post #213
Karunamon wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. There are two things that I feel should be destroyed and replaced on sight for the betterment of humanity: flat head screws/drivers, and network hubs. It would probably even cause a measurable increase in lifespan due to removal of a significant stress source. But I can dream...

Do you mean in the strict usage of a Ethernet repeater hub, as opposed to a switch? Where do you still encounter those dinosaurs?

Everywhere in large/old enterprises. I swear they multiply when nobody's looking, and they tend to cause massive headaches when they're plugged in by the unaware.

Hence: Kill on sight.

Re: List of screw drives

#223

Post by fastaguy88 »

jammi wrote: post #88
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, cars still last for two decades or more if maintained properly, and are IMO some of the most reliable pieces of gear out there - I'm finding newer models to be better in that regard than older ones (but maybe that's bias on my side, I haven't driven older cars in a while now)

Yes, if maintained properly, which means swapping out these engineered to fail parts every so often, which becomes uneconomical at least in the resale sense at some point in time, because the repaired car resale value is less than the cost of repair. For instance on VAG cars, the designed to fail cash-cow parts are typically the various suspension bushings. Once such a part is worn out, resulting in a part that has e…

"which becomes uneconomical at least in the resale sense at some point in time, because the repaired car resale value is less than the cost of repair."

I think this is a common misconception about car repair economics. The question is not whether the repair cost is more than the value of the car, the question is whether the repair cost + sale cost is higher than the value of the repaired car. I like keeping cars that I know the history of, even if the car is worth $1000, because it is unlikely that I can get a $3000 car that I have as much confidence in.

Re: List of screw drives

#224

Post by freehunter »

nemetroid wrote: post #221
freehunter wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't think "that's not phillips, that's pozidrive" is a good excuse. If they're that close, then pozidrive is just a non-standardard-complying phillips bit. It's the IE6 of screw heads, and the confusion is all their own fault.

The Phillips is the IE6 of screw heads. Pozidriv is an improved version which has long since replaced Phillips in Europe. I was unaware that Phillips screw heads were still common in the US until reading this thread.

It seems Phillips is just an outdated but standards-complying head. No one wants to use it because there are better tools for the job these days, but it did serve its purpose once. Whereas Pozidrive just duct-taped a few updates to the old standard and decided to call it good rather than fixing the actual problems.

There's no reason to have kept the same form-factor for the two varieties, it just leads to unnecessary confusion. The fact that you can plug an incorrect driver into it is, by definition, broken. Like how USB and Ethernet jacks are the same size, so you can plug your USB stick into Ethernet (which luckily does nothing harmful) but you can't plug Ethernet into USB.

If you're going to update an old standard and that requires an incompatibility with the old standard, you should come up with an entirely new form factor to ensure people won't mistakenly use the old connector with the new technology.

Though to be honest here in the US I've never seen Pozidrive and I just checked, I have zero drivers for a Pozidrive screw. Phillips really is just that awful all by itself.

Re: List of screw drives

#225

Post by ibdf »

antisthenes wrote: post #219
vertexFarm wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh, except Pozidriv will still cam and tear up their own screws, and same with Phillips. That's the secret to this tidbit of information that is never included. They're both trash fasteners when used with a slightly different driver, but they're also trash even when used correctly. Robertson for life. When I was young I had a job assembling furniture and that, along with a couple Allen socket fasteners, was the only…

Last time I tried to use a Robertson screw from Home Depot in a heavy duty application (building an AC frame and decking), it cammed out and the square opening in the screw literally became round. I tried compensating by applying more downward force, but eventually it was still camming out and the bit itself became a cylinder. It maybe better, but if the manufacturing quality is garbage, it's just as useless as the o…

Thanks for the feedback. I too switched to Robertson's but found no difference. It must be the quality of the screws and not the shape.

Re: List of screw drives

#226

Post by jerrysievert »

kps wrote: post #209
simonbarker87 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because there are little marks on the top of each pozidrive screws that indicate it is different. The don’t explain it in Europe either, it’s just a thing you should notice and account for when building stuff. I would put identifying pozidrive vs Phillips in the same camp as just knowing how to use a screw driver but perhaps I’m being harsh

Parochialism-induced harshness — what could go wrong? POZIDRIV® bits are practically unheard of here (Canada); you have to go out of your way to find them, on the level of triwing or pentalobe, or JIS.

I have triwing and pentalobe bits (Oregon), but this is the first time I've heard of POZIDRIV®, no wonder I've had so many Ikea mishaps.

Re: List of screw drives

#227

Post by zrobotics »

devy wrote: post #197
vertexFarm wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phillips isn't properly designed for power or hand tools. If it strips with a screwdriver, it's definitely going to strip with a drill. I've rarely seen power-driven Phillips screws that didn't have some sign of stripping, even using torque limiters and even on things fresh from the factory. At least flat head takes uneven torque from hand tools well. It also allows improvised tools to be used in the field. If I'm wo…

I am not arguing for Philips. But flat head has 2 less contact surfaces so definitely even more easily to cam-out.

Nope, you are confused about the meaning of cam-out. Flat head is actually significantly less likely to cam out than pretty much any screw fastener type besides inverted hex (allen). Cam out is when the torque applied acts to ramp the driver out of the fastener. The problem with flat head is that drivers do not self center, making them poor choices for power tools. There's a reason flat head screws are still used extensively in firearms manufacture, and it definitely isn't a manufacturing convenience. Carefully driving a flathead screw is much less likely to damage the finish of the fastener, provided the correct driver is used.

Re: List of screw drives

#228

Post by zrobotics »

bluGill wrote: post #152
micheljansen wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has just remodelled an old house with loads of flatheads: you've got to be kidding me. I hate those things with a passion. Flathead screws only restrict the movement of the screwdriver in one dimension and allow it to move in the other one. This leads to the screwdriver to keep sliding out when you put force on under even the slightest angle. Phillips screws improve on this design by restricting moveme…

You probably have a cheap flathead screwdriver which has tapered edges. They are significantly more expensive, but a good flathead with edges that are square to the screw slot works much better. (I'm not sure if I described that well) To make them work even better you can burnish a slight edge one the blade which will dig in and stop slippage.

They don't even need to be expensive. I have no clue why these aren't more common, but keep a cheap set of gunsmithing screwdriver bits around. Never seen them in a hardware store, but they are far superior to regular flathead bits with a chisel shape. Or just regrind all your screwdrivers when you buy them, which also makes it really easy to identify which flathead screwdrivers are reserved for hammering/prybar duty.

Re: List of screw drives

#229

Post by zrobotics »

joshu wrote: post #7

Do you find yourself stripping Phillips head acres frequently? That is because you are confusing Phillips and Pozidriv heads. They look similar but have a different head and different amount of engagement. I just bought myself some Wiha drivers after years of using shitty tools. I am so much happier now.

And then we get into the joy of JIS screwdrivers. Good god, the amount of stripped fasteners on japanese motorcycles caused by that slight angle change is ludicrous, and they're nearly impossible to tell apart by looking at them. The only reliable way to know is prior experience/national origin.

Re: List of screw drives

#230

Post by devy »

zrobotics wrote: post #227
devy wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not arguing for Philips. But flat head has 2 less contact surfaces so definitely even more easily to cam-out.

Nope, you are confused about the meaning of cam-out. Flat head is actually significantly less likely to cam out than pretty much any screw fastener type besides inverted hex (allen). Cam out is when the torque applied acts to ramp the driver out of the fastener. The problem with flat head is that drivers do not self center, making them poor choices for power tools. There's a reason flat head screws are still used ext…

Ah-ha, I might have mixed up with the screw "stripping" with cam-out but repeatedly cam-out is definitely the main reason to create a stripped screw. Evidently, the cam-out nature of the Philips screw is by design[1] to enable torque-limited application to prevent over-tightening, so it's a feature not a defect!

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cam_out

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