Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#221

Post by mannykannot » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 9:31 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #184

mannykannot wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An airplane under autopilot is not a second or two away from a fatal crash.

If the pilots are not flying, then it can be just a short time away from a crash. Like when the pilot is not paying attention and by the time the auto pilot can no longer fly, the pilot doesn't have enough situational awareness to take over. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_eye/2015/06/25/air_france_fli...

That is very much an outlier, and if it were at all relevant to the issue it would further weaken your case, as these three pilots had several minutes to sort things out. Questioning the assumptions underlying the assumed safety of airplane autopilot use can only weaken the claim that Tesla's 'autopilot' is safe.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#222

Post by ptaipale » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 9:32 PM UTC

skrause wrote: post #209

Gerardo1 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This same thing can be said of auto-pilot in planes. Not saying it invalidates your argument, just that there are pretty wide-reaching consequences to that idea.

Planes don't suddenly crash into a mountain because you have looked away for two seconds, there is much more time to react in case the autopilot doesn't behave correctly.

They can very suddenly crash into another plane because you have looked away for two seconds. It has actually happened (though nowadays, technology has made it easier to avoid these accidents).

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#223

Post by hippich » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 9:32 PM UTC

patcheudor wrote: post #107

tc wrote: post #18

Tesla probably shouldn't be saying anything about this at all, even just to avoid giving it more news cycles. But if they were going to say something, here's what they should have said the first time. ---- We take great care in building our cars to save lives. Forty thousands Americans die on the roads each year. That's a statistic. But even a single death of a Tesla driver or passenger is a tragedy. This has affecte…

>t's a tool to help attentive drivers avoid accidents that might have otherwise occurred. This needs far more discussion. I just don't buy it. I don't believe that you can have a car engaged in auto-drive mode and remain attentive. I think our psychology won't allow it. When driving, I find that I must be engaged and on long trips I don't even enable cruise control because taking the accelerator input away from me is…

Quite a lot years ago I had to drive for 6 hours straight at night to get on time to place where I needed to be (air flight was not available back then for me)

What I noticed that when I was following posted/safe speed limit, I was quickly losing focus, mind started wandering and eventually I felt I was falling asleep.

I do not remember what made me to speed up, but once I was about 30% faster than posted speed limits, and once I reached part of the way where road was quite bad + a lot of road work was happening, I realized that I much more alert.

As soon as I slowed down to posted speed limit speed I began drifting away again..

If anything, my anecdote confirms your theory - as soon as we perceive something safer, we pay way less attention. And Autopilot sounds like one of these safety things, which makes drivers less attentive and potentially missing dangerous situation, which otherwise would be caught by driver's mind.

I wonder if there is a way to introduce autopilot help without actually giving sense of security to the driver. Granted Tesla would lose so precious marketing angle, but if their autopilot would work somewhat like variable power steering system on background without obvious taking over control of the car, in the long haul that would be more beneficial?

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#224

Post by zamalek » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 9:33 PM UTC

The Tesla warns you, what, 6 times before disabling autopilot. Why not have the car engage the emergency lights and gradually slow down for each warning - eventually coming to a full stop. This plays directly into human impatience, likely resulting in hands on the steering wheel after the first warning. In the event that the driver does not react there is probably something wrong (e.g. seizure) and the car should come to a complete stop for safety. This is a very real trolley scenario because a stopped car on the highway is asking to be rear-ended, but it's still far better than a car traveling at 60mph with an incapacitated driver.

My last idea on how to eliminate these types of casualties was met with fair criticism (TL;DR - battery ejection)[1]. Am I missing anything with this idea?

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16720680

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#225

Post by debt » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 9:33 PM UTC

greglindahl wrote: post #159

tathastu wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's autopilot page ( https://www.tesla.com/autopilot ) says (as of today): Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.

Compare that with the message displayed each time the driver turns on Autopilot. Is there any evidence that Tesla drivers are more influenced by marketing or by the message that they see every day?

Also does Tesla have numbers to show that autopilot has actually been safer than a normal human driver?

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#226

Post by selectout » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 9:33 PM UTC

freerobby wrote: post #63

brandon272 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I learn about how these cars are handling things I end up disappointed and concerned because the actual implementation is way less impressive and seemingly less foolproof than I - and I'm sure many other people - are assuming they are. I would have never guessed "hands on wheel" is detected only if the driver yanks the wheel. I figured it was camera based or that the wheel had capacitive sensors.

The steering wheel detects torque. Generally if your hands are on the wheel, they exert enough torque through natural movements for the vehicle to detect them. In rare cases, where a road is straight and a driver's hands are perfectly balanced, the car will flash a warning, in effect telling the driver to provide some brief feedback. The slightest of forces on the wheel will quell the warning (much less force than is…

Are you talking about vehicles in general or Teslas? I've had a Model X for about a year now and can say that just having hands on the wheel definitely does not generate enough torque to deter the warnings on Autopilot, it definitely requires a "yank".

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#227

Post by dawnerd » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 9:34 PM UTC

eridius wrote: post #8

I have to wonder why Tesla keeps doubling down on victim-blaming. Is this a case of Elon Musk being insecure about criticism (since he's demonstrated a tendency in the past to react poorly to it)? Or is Tesla trying to actually lower their legal liability? Edit: To clarify, in most of these crashes, it's usually a combination of Tesla's fault and the driver's fault. Which is to say, the driver could have avoided the…

Might also be that they're afraid media might start pointing out that it's just fancy lane assist and not the "self driving" they've been subtly marketing. Don't get me wrong, I wish I had one in my driveway right now, but they really need to tone down the whole autopilot bit until they can make sure it doesn't kill people on very obvious obstacles.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#228

Post by eertami » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 9:35 PM UTC

DavidAdams wrote: post #158

Dwolb wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla need to stop calling it 'Autopilot'. The name implies drivers don't need to drive and is most likely a big reason drivers are lured into a false sense of security.

Volvo's messaging is less reckless than Tesla's. They call their similar feature "Pilot assist." It's also always been stricter about trying to make sure the driver is engaged when it's enabled. As a Volvo owner, I'll admit I find it annoying at times, but I think it's also helped drill into me that I shouldn't trust Pilot Asssist not to drive me into a barrier. It's amazing at keeping me in my lane when I'm fiddling…

>It's amazing at keeping me in my lane when I'm fiddling with my podcast feed though.

I hate to be sanctimonious at people online but this is how people get killed. Is it not illegal to do this where you live? In the UK you'd be half way to losing your license if you got caught touching a phone while driving (and lose it instantly if within the first 2 years of becoming a qualified driver).

You just said it yourself, you can't trust it, so don't play with your phone while driving, lane assist or not.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#229

Post by marcell » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 9:35 PM UTC

zmarty wrote: post #201

zaidf wrote: post #129

"The reason the other families aren't on TV are because their loved ones are still alive." Wow, this sounds like a horrible, tasteless burn to end the statement with. And I am a Tesla fan.

And where exactly does it say that?

The statement is here: https://twitter.com/dannoyes/status/983899361779236864/photo...

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#230

Post by freerobby » Wed, Apr 11, 2018, 9:35 PM UTC

selectout wrote: post #226

freerobby wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The steering wheel detects torque. Generally if your hands are on the wheel, they exert enough torque through natural movements for the vehicle to detect them. In rare cases, where a road is straight and a driver's hands are perfectly balanced, the car will flash a warning, in effect telling the driver to provide some brief feedback. The slightest of forces on the wheel will quell the warning (much less force than is…

Are you talking about vehicles in general or Teslas? I've had a Model X for about a year now and can say that just having hands on the wheel definitely does not generate enough torque to deter the warnings on Autopilot, it definitely requires a "yank".

Teslas. Maybe something changed but on my 2015 Model S I've never had to physically move the wheel in the slightest, just apply a little bit of pressure.