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Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

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Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#221
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still seems an hypocrisy to me. In any case, they use the flag as a marketing tool, something which, from my point of view, doesn't show much respect for the flag.

why should a flag be respected? I believe the US has some law stating it must be, but I think this is fairly unique worldwide.

The US has the flag code, which are really more guidelines than anything else. Flag burning is perfectly legal here.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#222
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A someone who is broadly sympathetic to the idea of labor ownership of the means of production, could I trouble you to explain what's so obvious about the stupidity of this plan? Taxes on corporate profits are generally seen as reasonable in the abstract, and they're common all over the world. I could see setting an unusually high tax rate being problematic, but that doesn't appear to be what happened. And it doesn't…

Labor running the company? This fails more often than it succeeds. Bread and circuses are the result, then bankruptcy. Indeed obvious without the use of hindsight.

> Bread and circuses are the result

I'm not interested in debating the merits or lack thereof of socialism as a system of government, but the "bread and circuses" thing applied to Roman citizens.

Unless I was misinformed, the overlap between the people in the Roman empire who were citizens and the people in the Roman empire who were the labour force was very, very small.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to the new era, where people have smartphones in their pocket yet are less resourceful than ever.

Sometimes when you ask someone a question like "where did that quote come from" you get more than just the title of the book. Maybe they have an interesting story to retell about where they first heard it. Maybe they can give you a more personal perspective that resonates a bit more than whatever you'd find from a cursory glance at some Google search results.

The beauty of Google for quotes - in addition to the obvious one, that you're saving someone else the effort of doing the work for you and getting your answer in seconds - is that you've got search access to primary sources like books and many periodicals. That is important, since the more popular a given quote, the more likely it is that it will be misattributed. We puny humans absolutely cannot be trusted to attribute quotes correctly.

I suppose it's a matter of personal politics whether that all matters more to you than getting an anecdote back like, "I was listening to an old radio show when I heard Winston Churchill intone Great are the stars, and man is of no account to them," or something.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#224

One have to remember why this was setup in the way it is, to protect the company forever. In Sweden during the 70-ties 80-ties the Social democrats was pushing a radical socialist agenda ('löntagarfonder') to take over companies by taxing profits and then buying shares with it, all controlled by trade unions. Result of these policies was that many companies left Sweden to protect itself (of course). IKEA, Tetra Pak a…

I'm not Swedish, but I find this area relatively interesting. The idea is fairly straightforward: Sweden's model created low income inequality between the poor and the rich, but did not create low wealth inequality. A large proportion of Swedish capital was controlled by 15 families, and most wealth his still controlled by a small inherited class (many descended from the old Swedish nobility), and 80-90% of wealth is passed down. We might think of Sweden's long period of dominance by the Social Democrats from the 1930s - 1970s as a sort of bargain between the lower/middle and upper classes: pay your workers well, ensure a strong welfare state, don't be too ostentatious and the lower class will let the upper class run their businesses as usual. One family, the Wallenbergs, controlled ABB, Ericsson, Electrolux, Atlas Copco, SKF, AstraZeneca and Saab. In the 70s they employed 40% of Sweden's workforce and were 40% of Sweden's stock market's worth.

https://econlife.com/2016/04/swedish-wealth-distribution/ http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/05/wea...

For Socialists, this led to an obvious question: what should be done about this? Their solution: most of this wealth comes from ownership of Capital in Sweden's large firms (this is an important distinction between Sweden and Denmark - Sweden has many more large corporations). Workers represented by the trade unions would own a large share of capital and then redistribute the profits from capital back to the workers (and reinvest in the firm and in worker training and investment in new firs controlled by workers). I think this is a relatively interesting take on the idea of "worker controlled enterprises". A very leftist take on all of this is here: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/08/sweden-social-democracy-m...

Of course it didn't happen, as part of the larger global ant-left backlash beginning in the late 70s which took basically everyone by surprise (see also The Iranian Revolution, the American Evangelical movement, Likud, the rise of the BJP in India...).

It's still an interesting idea, I think made more interesting by the rise of index funds like Vanguard. Increasingly capital is controlled by a small group of massive investment funds whose goal is to do nothing. This has led to the half-joking idea that index funds are worse than Marxism. I'll let Mark Levine explain:

" Virtually no one that I talk to in or around the financial industry really believes the "common ownership of companies by mutual funds undercuts competition" theory. It just seems too attenuated: Sure, it might be in BlackRock's and Vanguard's interests if the companies they own don't slash prices to compete with each other, but it's not (usually) like they call up executives to tell them that. Plus "competition" is usually a more nebulous concept than price-cutting: It might be in shareholders' interests to keep prices high, but it is also in shareholders' interests to see more innovation and more competition on quality. If you own the entire economic pie, your interest is in growing that pie, not in keeping each company's slices the same. And the way the pie grows is through the normal capitalist processes of innovation and competition and creative destruction and so forth.

Still I am so desperately fond of this theory. What I love -- what is made so clear in Jacobin's discussion -- is how it wraps capitalism all the way around to socialism. Index funds are in many ways a perfection of financial capitalism: Not only are they the result of scientific finance (modern portfolio theory, the efficient markets hypothesis, etc.) replacing earlier and less rigorous forms of investing, but they also concentrate and align shareholders with each other, and corporate managers with shareholders, in a way that seems like it would be well suited to "ensure that corporations remain within capitalist logic." And the result is something that both Marxists and also financial analysts think is quasi-communist, that "undermines the basic logic that made capitalism an economically and politically successful system in the first place." What if Marx was right that capitalism would ultimately destroy itself, but the way that it does so is through index funds? "

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-10-26/maybe-ind...

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-08-24/are-index... (this essay is also fun because he discusses the hypothetical "Best Planning Robot", a computer so good at allocating capital it finally solves all of Kantorovich's problems)

Anyways, all of this sort of suggests on silly idea: why not just wait until Vanguard controls most of the stock market and nationalize it? I don't think anyone believes this, but it's certainly something to think about.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#225

One have to remember why this was setup in the way it is, to protect the company forever. In Sweden during the 70-ties 80-ties the Social democrats was pushing a radical socialist agenda ('löntagarfonder') to take over companies by taxing profits and then buying shares with it, all controlled by trade unions. Result of these policies was that many companies left Sweden to protect itself (of course). IKEA, Tetra Pak a…

As a Norwegian I keep getting surprised by things I learn about Sweden. Sweden seems to have been a lot more socialist than Norway. In some respect might still be. The housing system in Sweden sound more socialist than what we got in Norway today, judging from how a Swedish friend has explained it to me. However welfare benefits seems more generous in Norway. How sick people are dealt with in Sweden seems harsher. No…

It is a mixed bag. In some aspects Sweden is more socialist and in other things Norway. But then, all government programs is not socialist by design, some is conservative other liberal. And I think that Norway is more conservative than Sweden.

How to tell if a government program is socialist or not? Rule of thumb is if the labour union or any other part of the labour movement is in on it.

'Löntagarfonder' originated from the Swedish labour union LO, LO is the main funder of the Social democrats. Up to the 90-ties membership in LO included a forced membership in the Social democrats.

Housing system is pure madness, rent is set by negotiation between the land lord and Hyresgästföreningen, historically a political ally to Social democrats!

So in Norway you can surf to finn.no and find an available apartment within minutes. In Sweden, nope!

One crazy thing I remember from Norway is that NRK can take money directly from your own bank account or contact your employer to take it from the salary if you don't pay the TV license ('kringkastingsavgift')!

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Labor running the company? This fails more often than it succeeds. Bread and circuses are the result, then bankruptcy. Indeed obvious without the use of hindsight.

> Bread and circuses are the result I'm not interested in debating the merits or lack thereof of socialism as a system of government, but the "bread and circuses" thing applied to Roman citizens . Unless I was misinformed, the overlap between the people in the Roman empire who were citizens and the people in the Roman empire who were the labour force was very, very small.

You get it; pedantry is pointless here. The folks benefitting from a thing will vote themselves money and perks until the place is bankrupt. It takes a different mindset to sign the front of the check, than to sign the back of the check.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#227
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds so obviously stupid I wonder why nobody stopped and said "You know, we might just make all these companies leave with stuff as ridiculous as this."

A someone who is broadly sympathetic to the idea of labor ownership of the means of production, could I trouble you to explain what's so obvious about the stupidity of this plan? Taxes on corporate profits are generally seen as reasonable in the abstract, and they're common all over the world. I could see setting an unusually high tax rate being problematic, but that doesn't appear to be what happened. And it doesn't…

> Taxes on corporate profits are generally seen as reasonable in the abstract

actually corporate taxes are a pretty controversial topic among economists. it's not considered to be a particularly efficient tax, and it is unclear who ultimately bears the burden of the tax.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#228
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A someone who is broadly sympathetic to the idea of labor ownership of the means of production, could I trouble you to explain what's so obvious about the stupidity of this plan? Taxes on corporate profits are generally seen as reasonable in the abstract, and they're common all over the world. I could see setting an unusually high tax rate being problematic, but that doesn't appear to be what happened. And it doesn't…

Labor running the company? This fails more often than it succeeds. Bread and circuses are the result, then bankruptcy. Indeed obvious without the use of hindsight.

There are lots of successful co-ops though.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#229
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds so obviously stupid I wonder why nobody stopped and said "You know, we might just make all these companies leave with stuff as ridiculous as this."

A someone who is broadly sympathetic to the idea of labor ownership of the means of production, could I trouble you to explain what's so obvious about the stupidity of this plan? Taxes on corporate profits are generally seen as reasonable in the abstract, and they're common all over the world. I could see setting an unusually high tax rate being problematic, but that doesn't appear to be what happened. And it doesn't…

You're right, not so obvious.

I wonder if the guarantee of a hostile takeover is the issue. When companies IPO, they don't expect immediate and systematic attempts of hostile takeover funded by your own money (tax dollars) through the most powerful organization in the area.

I wonder if the companies could have pulled a Zuck and kept full control regardless of ownership.

But you're right, still not so clear why they would run for the exits, unless the tax to do this was prohibitively high.

Re: Ikea founder leaves fortune to no one, structures it to ensure it lasts forever

#230
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds so obviously stupid I wonder why nobody stopped and said "You know, we might just make all these companies leave with stuff as ridiculous as this."

A someone who is broadly sympathetic to the idea of labor ownership of the means of production, could I trouble you to explain what's so obvious about the stupidity of this plan? Taxes on corporate profits are generally seen as reasonable in the abstract, and they're common all over the world. I could see setting an unusually high tax rate being problematic, but that doesn't appear to be what happened. And it doesn't…

This scheme is backdoor nationalization. OF COURSE the company would flee the country to prevent it.
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