James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#221

Post by hkmurakami » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:14 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #153

carrja99 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So he realistically has a choice between becoming a paid speaker for fringe ultra-right organizations Isn't that what he's been doing through his twitter account where he muses whether people join the KKK because they have cool titles? Or his interviews with people like Milo?

But can he sustain that? Or is he something of a ‘flavor of the month’ that people will stop carrying about in a year or two? Is this just an attempt to extend his relevance a bit longer?

If his settlement is 7 figures, he can retire off of that.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#222

Post by verroq » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:14 PM UTC

lukev wrote: post #116

Veen wrote: post #3

From the article: > women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering Why do news outlets persistently misrepresent what he actually said? I've read his memo and just about every news article says it contains claims that it doesn't. I have no view on whether he's right or not, but I remain shocked at the misrepresentation of his views throughout the tech media.

What? Did we read the same memo? One of his central points is that the representation gap between men and women in technology is due to different biological distributions. From the memo: > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leader…

There is a difference between women are on average less capable (or what your interpretation seems to imply - women programmers are worse than men) and what is written which are there may be less qualified female candidates due to biological differences.

The latter is an obvious statement however people seems keen to deliberately misinterpret it to fuel their rightous outrage.

I’ll use high jump as an example. Suppose I only hire high jumpers who can leap over X meters. I find that I naturally hire less women because women on average can’t jump as high as men. The women who can are obviously as qualified as men. Now I make the statement that due to biological differences this may explain the hiring disparity, rather than discrimination.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#223

Post by ThrustVectoring » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:14 PM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #202

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there is. "Women are worse" implies that there's a gendered difference after applying the "is an engineer" filter. "Fewer women gain entry into the class of engineers" doesn't imply anything about ability afterwards. And for what it's worth, James Damore explicitly called out this distinction, saying that he was not making a claim about any sort of skill differential between male engineer and female engineers.…

>Yeah, there is. "Women are worse" implies that there's a gendered difference after applying the "is an engineer" filter. ...No it doesn't. That's just something you're adding to preserve the distinction. >Like, male and female high jumpers that make it over a certain height of bar are approximately as good at jumping. There's more men in that category. This all might be playing semantics, but I think there's a real…

>Yes yes but the problem comes with Damore's reasoning for why there are more men in that category - biological determination of better programming ability.

Whether or not the representation gap is biological is an important factual matter that should be discussed on the merits. It'd do women no good to try to get their best sprint times up to men's by fixing society to be more accepting of female sprinters. There are real biological differences between the sexes, and trying to fix downstream effects of them by making up sociological causes and attacking them is very quixotic.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#224

Post by ddlsmurf » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:14 PM UTC

dopamean wrote: post #179

thenayr wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, you know, he could realize what a monumental fuck up he made and try and make a difference for the better. The dude literally let himself be paraded around by the alt-right and neo-nazi groups as a hero. -----------EDIT below--------------- Zero sympathy for this dirtbag. He's un-hireable because he deserves to be. Future advice for Damore wannabees When alt-right Twitter agrees with your world-views, you're doin…

That was really what did it for me. I read the document and I'll be honest, I didn't really hear the dog whistles and I didn't get particularly worked up about it. I thought it kinda read like pseudo-science and that was about it. But then the dude appeared on Mike Cernovich's show and was all over r/the_donald and I was like, "oh this is who this guy is." I hate to judge someone by the company they keep but this guy…

So guilty by association ? That's healthy...

What's truly sad about this is that he is the first I've heard of to propose actually fair measures we could take to promote gender diversity in IT, such as using more socially involved methods such as pair programming. Instead we get positive discrimination.

This depiction by tech crunch is an insult to reporting, if you read/listen to the primary source, there is no hate, no sexism, no racism, he just saw unfair stuff and spoke out about it.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#225

Post by threeseed » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

TheRealPomax wrote: post #201

threeseed wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No that just isn't how life does or should work. You make mistakes in an industry and you own the impacts to your reputation. He has done serious harm to the work of so many by his actions and absolutely deserves to own the consequences. And let's be serious here he has zero chance of winning against Google.

You seem unfamiliar with the power of litigation. The case won't be about "him being fired", but about showing there is any pattern for bias in Google with respects to the three stated criteria. And if they can show that bias exists, then still without making this about him, specifically, the court can be asked to apply punitive measures against google (which their client "happens to benefit from, being part of the g…

Explain to me where Google asks when you are hired whether you are white, male or conservative. I have worked for a dozen Fortune 500 sized companies now and not once has it ever come up. He wasn't fired for any of those aspects anyway. He was fired because he chose to act in an unprofessional manner.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#226

Post by DanAndersen » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #150

Jonovono wrote: post #27

I never really saw too much issue with what he wrote. It seemed a lot of people were mad at him for things he never said. It's been awhile since I read his document, but I remember expecting it to be so bad from all the uproar I was hearing, but after reading it I couldn't find much to be angry about. Can someone enlighten me - i'll admit, this may be a highly ignorant topic of mine.

I read it and it made me pretty annoyed, not so much for what he said, but how he chose to go about saying it. He says he is only trying to start a conversation or discussion, but circulating a secret memo around your company and then going on a self-promotional media crusade really is not a great way to do that. It looks more like a political stunt, which is pretty much the opposite of a conversation.

>circulating a secret memo around your company

>then going on a self-promotional media crusade

If internally sharing a document within a company is bad, and externally talking about it once it was made public by another party who got you fired is also bad, what is in your opinion the acceptable and appropriate method to have this conversation?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#227

Post by ebbv » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #162

thenayr wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, you know, he could realize what a monumental fuck up he made and try and make a difference for the better. The dude literally let himself be paraded around by the alt-right and neo-nazi groups as a hero. -----------EDIT below--------------- Zero sympathy for this dirtbag. He's un-hireable because he deserves to be. Future advice for Damore wannabees When alt-right Twitter agrees with your world-views, you're doin…

I'm not sure how many people have the PR-savvy needed to avoid that kind of problem. So even if the consequences of not avoiding that landmine are awful, I'm not sure it's fair to castigate him for that. (N.B.: I haven't looked carefully into how he handled that affair, so my comment might be misinformed.)

The fact that literally nobody else is famous for doing something so breathtakingly stupid tells us that basically everybody else is not as stupid as this guy.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#228

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #196

jgh wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I notice none of those options include "admit he was wrong and apologize". I'm sure he doesn't have to work for a top-tier tech company either.

It sounds like you're suggesting he both lies, and acts with disingenuity. I don't think it's reasonable to ask him to do that.

[deleted]

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#229

Post by stillhere » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

dmode wrote: post #176

Why would a "white male conservative" sue a corporation when the conservative platform believes that in a free market corporations should be allowed to discriminate as they please ? I have heard Ron Paul (ok, a libertarian) state numerous times how he doesn't support civil rights, because the public will stop visiting those businesses who engage in discriminatory behavior. Shouldn't James Damore just let the free mar…

That was a pretty weak strawman attempt. There are different types of conservatives. How do you know he identifies as an free market advocate?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#230

Post by lukev » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

imartin2k wrote: post #167

lukev wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Did we read the same memo? One of his central points is that the representation gap between men and women in technology is due to different biological distributions. From the memo: > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leader…

" It's because he's just another brogrammer...." After having read two lengthy pieces about him and his case, I think you are showing a lack of empathy and willingness to put yourself into some other person's shoes. You might disagree with his actions and world view. But you should maybe not be so quick with your labeling. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/16/james-dam... http://quillette.com/2018/01/05…

What am I supposed to have empathy for? That he was paid a six figure salary, part of which required him to sit through a few hours of sensitivity training?

And if we're worried about empathy, why don't we stop and think for a while about the people affected negatively by his memo?

Or do you mean the autism excuse (which is from the Guardian journalist, btw, not Damore himself?) I know lots of people on the autism spectrum who are not sexist, or who at least have the intelligence not to send out a memo to the whole company on a nuanced, controversial social topic