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Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

sf.curbed.com

221–230 of 326 posts

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way it is now, everything is geared towards "doing" things, and credit is received for "accomplishments" Repealing a law is doing something, and people frequently point to it as an accomplishment (or goal, if not yet done) if they think the law is unpopular with their constituency.

Just because it can be explained in that way does not make it so. Getting rid of things is much harder that adding things. We see this in systems all the time. Layers and layers and layers are added, but seldom taken away. We also see this in the law. Probably the last politician who was proud of saying no was Calvin Coolidge. The vast majority of politicians are wired the other way.

Sounds like legacy source code. The law needs some serious refactoring.

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#222

Another point which is usually not well-discussed, the houses/apts in SF are really bad in terms of quality, amenities and features. With new housing, this is starting to change a little bit. But, overall, rent control results in really bad maintenance. Landlords do the absolute bare minimum to not get sued/fined. For the rent people in SF pay, the value they derive is almost a joke.

BTW, we have forecast of housing supply: https://sf.statecraft.one/ and this is not that much as it should be.

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of stickiness and inelasticity when it comes to housing, especially when other factors such as kids and schools and spouse's commute and all come up.

Can a free-marketeer address this? I thought stuff like this were obvious rebuttals but look at the top posts in this comment section. It's starting to feel like articles and posts like this aren't driven by discussion or curiosity but just political fights.

There's nothing to dispute here–the are obviously factors other than costs that make (some) people prefer to stay put: local family, friends, or even plain old laziness.

That doesn't exclude the cost scenario outline further up, and the relative strength of these effects vary from person to person.

And no argument will "win" such debates for either side. These are complex issues, and even if everyone can agree on the mechanisms at work, you'll get widely different results based on differing importance for the conflicting goals you're trying to optimise for.

Rent control, as shown above, might legitimately add to traffic. But it's also cruel to force elderly people to leave their remaining friends, and their familiar neighbourhood, just because they can no longer afford rent.

Anyone claiming "it's so easy: just..." is invariably wrong. California's legislators aren't stupid. The main contributor to housing problems happens to be the unparalleled economic success of the state, plus a few geographic quirks.

Simplifying to the tired old "free market" vs "regulation" debate is only exchanging one set of problems for another. The US happens to have other locales that dabbled in an ideology-driven "free market" approach. The result are the suburban hell-holes that are Atlanta, or parts of Houston: Low-density clone cities totally reliant on cars, with much longer commutes and huge environmental footprints, almost devoid of street life.

What's usually needed is neither more nor less regulation, but smarter: encourage high-density mixed zoning, create public transport that can compete with cars, encourage companies to adopt telecommuting, flexible hours, distributed workplaces instead of central campus etc...

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#224
San Francisco needs to build high rise apartments and condos with tons of units, and lots of them.

That's all there is to it. Obsessing about rent control, population numbers, tech workers, or whatever else is nothing but a distraction. Dramatically increase supply and prices will drop.

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#225

Another second-order effect of rent control is increased traffic. Suppose you have two residents with significantly below-market-rate housing at the same quality level, one in downtown SF and another in Mountain View. The former starts a new job at Google in Mountain View, the latter starts a new job at a trendy start-up in downtown SF. Since they're paying significantly below market rate, they're unable to trade apa…

I believe this is exactly my current dilemma: I live in San Jose, I commute to SF 3 days a week (super thankful for the chance to work remote 2x a week). My current apartment (a 1BR I live in by myself) costs a bit less than 1k a month and is rent-controlled. The equivalent in SJ is probably worth 2-2.5x as much per month, and in SF (or somewhere in-between) it can be worth anywhere from 2.5-4x as much. I've been hun…

Sure, but in the counterfactual non-rent-control world, staying in SJ at $1000 isn’t even an option. Maybe efficiencies bring down prevailing rents a little bit, but enough to matter?

The more interesting question is, why are the 50 miles between SF and SJ reserved for sparsely packed single family homes and one story strip malls?

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#226
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, GP did address that point: the current renters of a city have votes [in local government], and the future renters do not.

I feel this response is confusing right with might. Just because some group has the political might to make laws that benefit them does not make those laws right, does it?

Right and wrong are almost entirely subjective on issues like this. What is the right level of political boundaries for people to have a vote in these decisions? Should residents of San Diego be able to influence housing policy in San Francisco? How about residents of Chicago, or Madrid, or Karachi?

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#227
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems comparable to immigration controls between countries.

It’s more comparable to the movement controls of apartheid.

Arguably, immigration controls are also similar to the movement controls of Apartheid. They're just more socially acceptable because pretty much every country does it.

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#228
post #12

Rent control is a failed experiment. All it does is force land lords to massively increase rent amounts when someone moves out to account for multi-year market increases. Basically, if the real market price of an apartment is ~$3,000/mo, but in 5 years it realistically would be $5,000, they will simply list it for $5,000 now, to mitigate the loss. My mother-in-law is a land lord in Los Angeles (a very fair one at tha…

The real failed experiment is that of renting property in general. If nobody were allowed to own more homes than they could live in, or derive income from rentals, there'd be a much bigger supply of housing on the market for buyers, and a much more liquid market for buying and selling as people's jobs shifted.

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#229
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we need something deeper than that, you have 3/4 of your country that are almost a wasteland and you insist on cram all the people in 4 or 5 cities. Maybe we need to start to incentive moving people to other more empty places...

It's not really a wasteland, though. My wife moved here from New York to Kansas City, and her old friends act like there are cows walking down the street or something. If you're willing to live with diversity of political affiliation (it's a pretty even mix of Democrat and Republican around here, and I've heard people on HN say they'd be absolutely unwilling to live somewhere like that), you can get a 2200 square foo…

I think I understand this perception to be the product of youngish, upwardly-mobile, well-educated people who are able to build enormous, fluid, flexible social/friendship/dating networks throughout their 20s living in L.A. or NYC that they couldn't build in St. Louis or Kansas City.

They're actually mostly right about that. [0]

The problem is that the perception remains well beyond its usefulness. Mid-sized Midwestern and Southern cities have everything a married couple in their 30s with (or without) a couple kids could possibly want -- all the stuff you mention and a lot more, really. And they provide it with a COL-tradeoff that can't be ignored.

I have a fairly good idea what people in New York think of my hometown and other cities like it and, frankly, they're wrong far beyond otherwise reasonable differences of opinion (as in they hold what are inarguably factually incorrect views (about, say, the size of Midwestern economies, the availability of jobs, the number of cultural institutions, the experiences of people of color and homosexuals (in urban centers, admittedly), the prevalence of ethnic restaurants, and on and on).

[0] I think it's exaggerated (especially in the sense that it's not for everybody), but real.

Re: Stanford paper says rent control is driving up cost of housing in San Francisco

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heinlen in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" introduces the idea of a legislature with 2 chambers. One for creating laws and the other for getting rid of them. The threshold for creating them being higher. The way it is now, everything is geared towards "doing" things, and credit is received for "accomplishments". Its usually much harder to undo things. It would be refreshing to have specialists in undoing things.

IMO, there should be automatic sunset provision in every law passed in this country, like the one existed for the Patriotic Act, and reviewed, renewed or expired every 5 or 10 years.

I hate the Patriot Act too, but beware unintended consequences.

How do you feel about laws like the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

I think that law continues to serve our society well. And I'm certain it would not be renewed by our current Federal government.

Ditto for regulations on water, sewage, pharma purity and many other laws that facilitate civilization. It's all very nice to say 'sunset every law', but we depend on many of them being in place.

Like removing redundant rivets on an aircraft. You can't be sure which ones are critical. The cost of discovering that can be quite high.

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